Title: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 03:26:03 PM Hi all,
this is a post that a friend made on facebook (a few of you may have seen it before). I thought it was very interesting..what do u think? "Hey everyone opinions are really welcome on the following... Game is .5/£1 I just sat down 3 hand ago and effective stacks are £150. UTG limps I open to £4 with Ac Qh. Co calls and button pops to £12. I call and co calls. Flop is Ahrt Kh Th. I check, co checks, button bets £25, I raise to £75, co folds, button shoves, I obv call. We both flip our cards and he shows Aspades Tc, since I don't have any money to reload at this point I offer running it twice and he accepts. Now this is the new dealer dealt cash game at Grosvenor and the dealer seems very confused about the whole situation. In like wtf do u mean. So we attempt to explain running it twice but it bypasses his brain and he calls the floor. They have no idea what we're talking about and whether they allow it so I say well can u get the rule book out and have a look please. Everyone at the table is like yeah just burn and turn twice u know and nobody cares bout the hold up to the game. Anyway the floor stay there bemused and still don't know wtf is going on and then randomly the dealer just deals turn and river (prolly out of some kind of frustration) and deals Jh 3d to give me my first ever live royal flush. Then goes that's it hand is over and the floor agree that no more action is allowed without any proper ruling. So I get shipped the £300 pot with pretty mixed feeling. I do believe this might be the most unhappy anyone has ever been winning a good pot with a royal.. but that's not the point, but still kinda cool I guess :) So the question is do I owe this guy any kind of equity. I don't feel I do and that was the general feeling of the table except the man in the question. But I'm not totaly convinced and would like other people's input on the matter. I feel if I was on the other end I would've let it go and not expected anything cause it was the casino's ruling despite being a gay one. And he probably wouldn't have accommodated me for similar reasons. I dunno, I'm stuck on it so if anyone can enlighten me it'd be very much appreciated. I mean the money is not a big deal at the end of the day cause it's not much but the actual value has no meaning obv as we all know and it's all EV really so let me know." Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 03:30:07 PM and this was my reply..
i think its fair to take 3/4 of the pot - the half that you won and 50% of the other run that didnt occur. you are well within your rights to take it all, and the vast majority of players certainly would, but i would feel bad (as i'm sure you did - otherwise the question wouldn't be here!) still, dont feel bad for taking it all. if the situation was flipped i am 99% sure you would be out of pocket. maybe this is a pessimistic view on the situation, but i always feel too many people would happily rake in the entire pot here without even thinking. the one thing this does show is a weakness in the performance of some dealers/card room staff. in my opinion the general standard in england is poor. This is a situation that is identifiable to all players, and therfore should be part of a dealer's training, and especially something that the card room staff should have a rapid answer for! Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: kukushkin88 on January 30, 2009, 03:35:49 PM I can't see that you owe him anything, the opportunity to run it twice almost certainly won't be addressed by Grosvenor rules so it's fair enough for them to say you can't do it. You don't owe him anything in terms of equity. Maybe offer him a flip for half of it next time. (only if you run really good at flips obv0
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: AndrewT on January 30, 2009, 03:37:40 PM Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game?
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Longines on January 30, 2009, 03:39:28 PM I'm pretty sure Grosvenor rules forbid running it twice, checking it down or any other artificial outcomes in cash games. It's definitely mentioned in the rules on display in Walsall and the Vic.
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: StuartHopkin on January 30, 2009, 03:40:51 PM First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING!
As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that. Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 03:41:34 PM Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game? they definately have them at DTD, guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 03:43:45 PM First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING! As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that. Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on. yeah that was me mate, shared a taxi with u and matt (on saturday i think?). and owe u a drink seeing as u refused to take any money. next time at dtd and yeah good point - much easier when u have had time to think, but in the moment so easy to just scoop Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: thetank on January 30, 2009, 03:46:46 PM His equity for the other half of the pot is about £63
Buy the table £60 worth of sandwiches, tip the valet £3 This satisfies any moral responsibility you may feel you have, nobody can claim you gained from the dealer's actions, plus everybody gets sandwiches. Easy game this poker. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: George2Loose on January 30, 2009, 03:54:40 PM once the ruling is made to run it once then you owe him nothing imo
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: StuartHopkin on January 30, 2009, 03:57:44 PM First question? Did i meet you at the weekend? I vaguley remember something! Was it you? Or was it your bro? MUST STOP DRINKING! As for this, i think in the moment i would keep the lot, they obv dont have people running things twice so rules are rules and all that. Sitting at a computer reading it I would like to think I would ask the casino if i could borrow a pack of cards for a minute, run it again on the floor of the casino next to the table they were playing on. yeah that was me mate, shared a taxi with u and matt (on saturday i think?). and owe u a drink seeing as u refused to take any money. next time at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) A drink sounds good ;D I was soooo drunk on Saturday, when I saw your post I had a little flashback! Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: kinboshi on January 30, 2009, 04:05:52 PM Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game? they definately have them at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too I've only seen 1/1 at Grosvenors, but I guess some might run .50/1. Someone asked about running it twice at DTD, and were told categorically no. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 04:12:34 PM Dealer dealt 50p/£1 game? they definately have them at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), guess they must do at one (or more) grosvenors too I've only seen 1/1 at Grosvenors, but I guess some might run .50/1. Someone asked about running it twice at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), and were told categorically no. yeah i had one on 2-2 omaha at DTD where we both flopped nut straight with a single backdoor flush draw each. tried to chop but they didnt allow it. luckily neither of us hit... Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: George2Loose on January 30, 2009, 04:19:35 PM Is there any reason why clubs don't allow this sort of practice- is it might make it easier for people to collude?
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: outragous76 on January 30, 2009, 04:51:40 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot?
You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: action man on January 30, 2009, 05:02:41 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot? You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! steady on fella. I agree he shouldnt have dealt out of the blue, but if u mock the dealers for what they earn compared to the pot, then its you who needs a kicking. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: ariston on January 30, 2009, 05:28:14 PM You dont have to give him anything back but I would personally give him the chance. As he had 63% equity in the pot the second time it shouldve been run (sorry grosvenor but its our cash we are playing for and if we want to run it twice/insurance or whatever then it should be none of your business- the dealer is beingpaid for to run our game) I would see if he would agree to a coin flip or a colour shout on the next flop to at least give him a shot. If you agreed to run it twice I would at least give him this offer. You chose red he choses black and if the flop has 2 or more red cards you keep the pot, if there are 2 or more black cards you give him his half the pot. This would allow you to live with yourself over the thought you had somebody over for a relatively small ammount of cash.
I am sure anyone playing dealers choice has had this situatin arise. On the river you have the nuts in omaha high and bet the pot. A player calls and announcs chop showing the nut low (nut low only no high of any kind). When he is politely told the game is high only and he has clearly made a mistake how many players give him his last be back? If its regular game and the guy is a regular would you rather make him pay for his mistake by keeping the last bet and have bad feeling at the table or give him his last bet back and seem to be the good guy? I have always given the player his last bet back if it was clear he made a mistake. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: kinboshi on January 30, 2009, 05:30:31 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot? You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! That's a pleasant attitude to take. Maybe they were given the nod by the floor manager and the player didn't see or hear this? Haven't you ever made a mistake in your job? If you make a mistake that doesn't make you and idiot, and neither is it particularly big or clever to attempt to put someone down based on the size of their salary. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: mondatoo on January 30, 2009, 05:35:27 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot? You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! Since the dealers on HSP normally look clueless at what's going on when they choose to run it twice and I'm guessing they'll be some of the best dealers in the world then I think it wouldn't be that big a mistake tbh.Taking that into relation to your post, get a fkn grip eh,sorry I don't have the eloquence of trigg or kin and just find your post a bit pathetic Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 06:26:22 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot? You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! surely if a mistake of this nature has been made it is also more likely to be down to a lack of training in what to do in this situation rather than it just being a simple poor decision by the dealer? plus, any kind of dealer-abuse is surely likely to only make a dealer either more nervous (and therefore more likely to make subsequent mistakes) - abusing the dealer is surely not only unconstructive but offensive and will likely actually have the opposite effect of the one you desire. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: easypickings on January 30, 2009, 07:53:02 PM In a way, it's simple. Of course, if the guy keeps all the money, he has techinally does nothing wrong. The decision of the house (however bizarre) stands.
It's probably unfair to criticise anyone who did keep the whole lot, but it's a situation where you would hope most regular players would try to do the fair thing. Knowing what the fair thing is a difficult question, but in a way it doesn't matter. Offering the guy 1/2 of the second half of money would be about right. Because an offer like running it twice is an off-the-cuff gentlemens' agreement, I think it's a situation where the two guys should then be prepared to be flexible if need be. The dealer of course didn't help things, as he shoudln't have just got impatient and made his decision unannounced. I think what the dealers have to realise is that it doesn't matter if they don't know everything. All they need to do is to not panic, and conifdently ask for a fair ruling. This would definitely be alot more possible if all the players were prepared to be patient with them! Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: MC on January 30, 2009, 08:24:26 PM In this situation it's not your fault. Really it's the casino's fault for not understanding what running it twice is, which is fairly shocking imo!
Under their rules you win the pot, therefore I think you're entitled to all of it. Just as your opponent would have been if he won the hand... Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: cia260895 on January 30, 2009, 08:58:26 PM Like what most of the others have said you have done nothing wrong and have to accept the floors decision.
Your choice is what to do off the table. What would you have done in the reverse situation if he hit his boat and they only ran it once? Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Numpty Dumpty on January 30, 2009, 10:07:35 PM Like what most of the others have said you have done nothing wrong and have to accept the floors decision. Your choice is what to do off the table. What would you have done in the reverse situation if he hit his boat and they only ran it once? sorry, to clarify, this was not me, i just thought it was an interesting topic. completely agreee, my friend has done nothing technically wrong by not splitting the pot, but all the same felt a little guilty and unsure what to do. he posted a later message saying as he knew the other guy involved in the hand fairly well he would offer him the fair amount of equity (1/4 pot) when he sees him next. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Royal Flush on January 30, 2009, 10:37:51 PM lol @ chopping pots
Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: boldie on January 31, 2009, 12:04:08 PM lol @ chopping pots this. and even more lol at running it twice just because you've seen it on HSP...really..cut that shit out, please. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: Jamier-Host on January 31, 2009, 12:19:30 PM lol @ chopping pots Paris cash game? Still can't believe he offered it you though.... :) Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: outragous76 on February 01, 2009, 06:28:56 PM if you feel at all bad - get a deck of cards - pull out 2 cards - if you miss - ship him 1/2 the pot? You did nothing wrong - dealer should be taken outside and given a kicking for dealing whilst awaiting a ruling. I always find it brings it home to these idiots when you remind them that the pot size is a weeks salary! steady on fella. I agree he shouldnt have dealt out of the blue, but if u mock the dealers for what they earn compared to the pot, then its you who needs a kicking. I am not mocking anybody! I was merely going off what was posted. I have seen dealers do some stupid things in much bigger pots. The problem is they are frustrated that thay feel something they have done is being questioned. Continuing to deal just for the sake of it does nothing but piss people off. The point I am making is (just like in my job) - dont make a rash decission when quite alot depends on it! Nobody wants to lose a pot because of someones ill judgement (espeically when an outside opinion is being sought). So.......... I am not mocking........ all I am saying is - if he sat there and said to himself........ "this is an £x,000 decission I am being asked to make" there is no way he just mucks the cards/continues to deal/ whatever! He wouild instead wait for the authorising decission. I sometimes think that they forget those little plastics discs in a big heap oftentimes represent a big wedge to any of the players sat around the table! Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: AlexMartin on February 01, 2009, 06:36:44 PM His equity for the other half of the pot is about £63 Buy the table £60 worth of sandwiches, tip the valet £3 This satisfies any moral responsibility you may feel you have, nobody can claim you gained from the dealer's actions, plus everybody gets sandwiches. Easy game this poker. tank delivers again. If i had been in this spot though id just give him back his money and forget about the hand. Title: Re: Ethical poker situation - opinions needed! Post by: EvilPie on February 01, 2009, 06:45:02 PM lol @ chopping pots this. and even more lol at running it twice just because you've seen it on HSP...really..cut that shit out, please. Have to agree with this. Don't do it again please. If you want to chop a pot don't get involved in the first place. |