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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 05:15:18 AM



Title: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 05:15:18 AM

Ok, after a difficult Thursday for blonde as a whole, it seems, as always appears to be the case, that "the day after" is much better.

Anyway, here's my closing post for the day.

In Monte Carlo, as anywhere I suppose, it's nice, when we've ben non-stop Updating for several days, to talk about something other than poker now & then. But we went to the nightly free buffet, & Jen & I managed  get sandwiched, nightly, betwen crushing bores, who seemed unable to discuss ANY subject except "so, the flop comes JJ3, & Muppet bets...". I'd try my diversionary tactics. "You got family?". Drone drone, flop story, flop story. "Wherebouts in America you originate from?" Flop story, flop story, drone drone. "How many kids you got?" Flop story..........

OK, it is what it is. The 4 day event finishes, a huge sense of relief washes over Jen & me. There are celebratory parties left right & centre, with Paul Jackson, Marc Goodwin, the Bad Beat Boys, Chris Smith, the zillionaire who owns Bad Beat, Matt Savages crew, all inviting us out to parties. But we are wrecked. We wanna cuppa tea, & put out feet up, & get away from poker & poker peeps for an hour or two.

Wandering through the luxurious Hermitage Hotel, where Jen was staying, thanks to Matt Savage & co, (I had to slum it on a yacht....) we bump into a homely bunch in one of the lounges, several pots of tea are ordered, the shoes come off, & we chat away for hours.

There was Jen, myself, and a guy called Jatinder Singh, who'd done very well indeed in the event. His online name is AceJ, & I gather he's quite an online celeb, hails from Manchester. VERY sharp, educated, great guy. And there was Granite John's missus, a terrific lady, who looks about half her real age. (Granite John, he from Gutshot). And there was a lady who'd come all the way from New York to sweat her niece, who was Rammid, who's finalled in the Consolation Event. It was SUCH a relief to be able to talk non-poker for a few hours, I really enjoyed the time we had chatting.

Inevitably - heaven knows how - the subject of well, toilet seats came up. Toilet seats? Yeay, you heard right. Toilet seats. How THAT arose is another story altogether, you'll have to wait till tomorrow for that one, but trust me, it will be worth the wait.

The thing is, I've always wondered why girlies get SO upset about toilet seats being left up. What's the problem?

And so the question arose, "what's the big deal about leaving toilet seats up?".

And these three Ladies, perfectly calm, intelligent & rational until then, went BALLISTIC. They were incandesent with rage!

I look at it this way. Bloke leaves the toilet seat up. Girlie arrives, puts the seat down. That's ONE movement. Not hard. Takes half a second. Girlie leaves it down. Bloke arives. Puts it up. That's one movement. Takes about half a second. No problem then?

You're having a laugh. Those ladies went APESHIT. You HAVE to leave the seat DOWN. It's a HANGING OFFENCE not to.

Can anyone explain to me why women are SO irrational & daft about this perfectly logical matter? Men leave it up, women leave it down. What's the problem?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 26, 2005, 05:27:28 AM
Woman should be grateful that men lift the seat in the first place before we take a wizz.

It's not as if a lady is not going to wash her hands anyway after a visit, there should be no problem in putting the seat down themselves.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Phil on November 26, 2005, 09:16:29 AM
I ALWAYS leave the seat down for my girlfriend. But no she just complains that there's wee all over the seat, so you just can't win whatever you do. Women will always find a way to moan.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: ariston on November 26, 2005, 10:54:59 AM




Can anyone explain to me why women are SO irrational & daft about this perfectly logical matter? Men leave it up, women leave it down.

Question and answer in the same sentence....because they are irrational and daft!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: madasahatstand on November 26, 2005, 11:31:42 AM
there are germs on the toilet seat therefore one would have to wash ones hands before peeing commenced and then again after so Tikkay. 1. movement putting seat down 2. turn tap on 3. get soap 4 lather 5. rinse 6 turn tap back off 7. dry...........alll that before taking a pee is a pain..................:)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: AndrewT on November 26, 2005, 11:43:54 AM
I think it's mostly because, sadly, some men are 'sprayers', who don't lift the seat up before covering everything within four feet of them.

I don't have this problem - as Elvis Costello sang, 'My Aim Is True'.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: LukieD on November 26, 2005, 12:15:57 PM
there are germs on the toilet seat therefore one would have to wash ones hands before peeing commenced and then again after so Tikkay. 1. movement putting seat down 2. turn tap on 3. get soap 4 lather 5. rinse 6 turn tap back off 7. dry...........alll that before taking a pee is a pain..................:)

But it's exactly the same for men! We are no more immune to germs than you are!!   ;)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: madasahatstand on November 26, 2005, 12:23:22 PM
so luke, you actually do all that before peeing?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Dingdell on November 26, 2005, 12:29:42 PM
ok ok - as far as I am awareI am the only colonic irrigationist on the site -  and as such this gives me specialist status in this debate as my world revolves around toilets.   I clean the loo at least twice for every patient I see - yummy - I love my job (no pun intended) and I'm in charge of infection control at the clinic which is v v v important when it comes to toilets.

Anyway - you should put the  loo seat down for the following reasons:

1.  Girls like it if you do
2. Girls like it if you do
3. Girls like it if you do

All other reasons are irrelevant



Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 12:32:20 PM
But Mad,

I am not arguing with your hygiene argument, it's valid, but my point is, which never, in th history of he Universe, has any Girlie agreed with, is that ITS THE SAME EITHER WAY. No?

Dingdell has it spot on, methinks......


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: LukieD on November 26, 2005, 12:37:04 PM
Exactly..it's the same for both so men should leave it up and women down and everyone has to deal with it!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: madasahatstand on November 26, 2005, 12:39:30 PM
are there no gentlemen left in this world? call me old fashioned but i like men opeing the doors, carrying my bags and putting down the lav seat :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 12:43:05 PM

Thats a DIFFERENT point Mad. I do the opening doors, after you, men walk nearest the kerb, I insist on paying. quite right too. And if I had a partrner, I'd put the Lav seat down.

But my question is relevant to the seat, ........WHY?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: snoopy1239 on November 26, 2005, 12:47:30 PM
there are germs on the toilet seat therefore one would have to wash ones hands before peeing commenced and then again after so Tikkay. 1. movement putting seat down 2. turn tap on 3. get soap 4 lather 5. rinse 6 turn tap back off 7. dry...........alll that before taking a pee is a pain..................:)

aaaaah... so does that mean women should put the seat back up for us lads when we go to the loo?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 12:49:18 PM
Exactly!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: madasahatstand on November 26, 2005, 12:58:17 PM
id say that was a fair compromise. then nobody has to wash their hands prior to peeing


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: snoopy1239 on November 26, 2005, 01:00:52 PM
Woman should be grateful that men lift the seat in the first place before we take a wizz.


lol - you're such a charmer, thetank.  :D


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 26, 2005, 01:10:52 PM

He's Scottish.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Nakor on November 26, 2005, 01:55:01 PM
I have sort of been worried about what to do with my 100th post . . .

And then this Thread appears.

We put it up, they put down simple as.  However I tried for 7 years to convince 1 woman this is the way forward and failed.  I have succomb.

I think its just one of those rules . .

You will never Hoover as well as them.
You will never reply with enough enthusiam to the saturday night question "Do I look OK in this ?"
You don't need beer when shopping as much as they need toner, cleanser, powder, eye shadow, conditioner etc etc etc
Your snoring is always worse then hers.
It doesn't cost as much when they leave a light on as when you do.
You are expected to remember every detail of every day together, they can't even remember the last time you spent "Quality" time together.

Anyway back to the poker you know where you are with that, and expect it to smack you in the face every now and then.



Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: zelda on November 26, 2005, 02:33:08 PM
I share a house with 4 boys - I wouldnt mind the toliet seat being left up (it never is though because the ferrets may jump in the toilet so everyone knows they must put the seat down) its the pee around the floor that gets me - I must babywipe the floor 20 times a day!!!!! :(:(


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: charmaine on November 26, 2005, 03:47:26 PM
I'm with Zelda on this one , toilet seat being left up is not a problem but the peeing on  the floor .. Ewwwwwwwww !!
I'm the only female over 16 months (lol) living in the house with 5 boys/men and guess who cleans the mess ???  :(

I prayed for Girls and was blessed with 4 boys ..lol

Mind you i could tell you stories about how disgusting teenage girls are that would make your hair curl


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: ariston on November 26, 2005, 04:13:23 PM
I share a house with 4 boys

Thats a completely different thread altogether Zelda but please remember this is a family forum :o


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: zelda on November 26, 2005, 04:25:48 PM
lmao ariston - grrrr.  you know 3 are my kids...  all my other boyfriends live in another house  :kiv:
:birthday: btw :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Scottish Dave on November 26, 2005, 04:35:20 PM
there are germs on the toilet seat therefore one would have to wash ones hands before peeing commenced and then again after so Tikkay. 1. movement putting seat down 2. turn tap on 3. get soap 4 lather 5. rinse 6 turn tap back off 7. dry...........alll that before taking a pee is a pain..................:)

but thats the same wioth guys then, we would have to wash hands after lifting it toio, then again after pee-ing!

so as tikay says, its exactly thr same!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: RED-DOG on November 26, 2005, 04:56:07 PM
Well this is how I see it, I know a lot of you will consider my views chauvinistic

Men and women are eaqual

Men and women, while being EQUAL, are not the SAME, a lot of people confuse the two

as an example, women firefighters, it means there has to be seperate sleeping quarters, toilet/bathroom facilities and the men have to curb their language and modify their conversation. Plus if I were unconcious in a burning building I would want a 16 stone bloke to carry me to safety

The same applies to frontline soldiers. By their very nature women will defend their own to the death, but they are not pre disposed to attacking

I think women are much better communicators, negotiators, teachers, listeners, speakers, and carers than men could ever be, all heads of state should be female


I like men to be masculine and women to be feminine.

I love opening doors, buying flowers, paying for dinner and pretending to be brave and strong, I want to be the man of the house, and I want her permission to say so

I want a woman that has the good grace to pander to my testosterone fueled ego, even though when the chips are down she is probably braver and stronger than me

I don't care why women say and do unfathomable things, it's all part of their fascination

I lift the toilet seat and I put it down again, no questions asked



Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Trace on November 26, 2005, 05:01:24 PM
Rule in my house - put the seat up and leave it up if you like.  The amount of times, in the past,  I've got up in the night to go to the loo half asleep and sat on the kid's/ex's pee is UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!   Women have to sit on the darn thing whenever they go in there - Men don't!

My youngest and my ex-b/f were the worst for this, and what gets me is that @ 40 years old, he teaches his own son to lift the seat, but didn't do it himself!!!

The nine year old has been threatened with having his nose rubbed in it to teach him a lesson.

My pet hate - you guessed it - MEN NOT LIFTING THE SODDING SEAT UP!!

As to the comment on washing hands before and after, that takes twice as long in my house as my loo and bathroom are separate.  I don't have the luxury of an en suite or downstairs loo, and I won't have it knocked into one, cos there is nothing worse than being in the bath/shower and someone being desperate for a number 2!!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 26, 2005, 05:15:05 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't buy into this washing hands twice argument.

Are you eating fried chicken or performing self-dentistry while on the job?

If the answer is no, then why wash your hands twice. No need to touch much after lifting the seat down until you turn on the taps afterwards. Don't get me wrong I like my hygiene too, but that seems a little too clinical.

How many women honestly wash their hands prior to performing if the seat is left up?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: North Angel on November 26, 2005, 05:38:22 PM
It really doesn't bother me if the seat is left up or down, i prefer it left up, like Trace there is nothing worse then going for a wee and you sit on a wet toilet seat  :tikay:

Maybe you guys can answer this one, why do men have to place one hand on the wall while they are peeing??? are they frightened they will fall in??

Ang x x


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 26, 2005, 05:43:48 PM
It really doesn't bother me if the seat is left up or down, i prefer it left up, like Trace there is nothing worse then going for a wee and you sit on a wet toilet seat  :tikay:

Maybe you guys can answer this one, why do men have to place one hand on the wall while they are peeing??? are they frightened they will fall in??

Ang x x

Yes, also in the morning there are geometrical reasons for the hand thing being necessary.

Oh and stop watching us at it, it's private time.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: North Angel on November 26, 2005, 06:04:56 PM
It really doesn't bother me if the seat is left up or down, i prefer it left up, like Trace there is nothing worse then going for a wee and you sit on a wet toilet seat  :tikay:

Maybe you guys can answer this one, why do men have to place one hand on the wall while they are peeing??? are they frightened they will fall in??

Ang x x

Yes, also in the morning there are geometrical reasons for the hand thing being necessary.

Oh and stop watching us at it, it's private time.

Shut the toilet door and I wont be able to see...... ::)

Ang x x


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Trace on November 26, 2005, 06:12:37 PM
I have another one - why do men ALWAYS smell their socks when they take them off?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Robert HM on November 26, 2005, 06:21:50 PM
We need to know if they can last another week


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Trace on November 26, 2005, 06:51:06 PM
God that is sooooo gross!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: charmaine on November 26, 2005, 06:57:37 PM
Ummmm , nope Pauls never done that  :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Robert HM on November 26, 2005, 06:59:11 PM
There's always the wall test for socks. Take em off, throw them against the wall, if the stick they won't last more than a couple more days.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Dingdell on November 26, 2005, 07:25:50 PM
Well this is how I see it, I know a lot of you will consider my views chauvinistic

Men and women are eaqual

Men and women, while being EQUAL, are not the SAME, a lot of people confuse the two

as an example, women firefighters, it means there has to be seperate sleeping quarters, toilet/bathroom facilities and the men have to curb their language and modify their conversation. Plus if I were unconcious in a burning building I would want a 16 stone bloke to carry me to safety

The same applies to frontline soldiers. By their very nature women will defend their own to the death, but they are not pre disposed to attacking

I think women are much better communicators, negotiators, teachers, listeners, speakers, and carers than men could ever be, all heads of state should be female


I like men to be masculine and women to be feminine.

I love opening doors, buying flowers, paying for dinner and pretending to be brave and strong, I want to be the man of the house, and I want her permission to say so

I want a woman that has the good grace to pander to my testosterone fueled ego, even though when the chips are down she is probably braver and stronger than me

I don't care why women say and do unfathomable things, it's all part of their fascination

I lift the toilet seat and I put it down again, no questions asked




Will you marry me?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: RED-DOG on November 26, 2005, 07:40:15 PM
Yes, but no irrigation before the honeymoon


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Dingdell on November 26, 2005, 07:58:58 PM
Spoil sprt - it's one of my only pleasures....


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Colchester Kev on November 26, 2005, 08:51:38 PM
Cracking debate guys, my opinion is that men leave the seat up after having a wee because we really just dont care :) if i go into a loo and the seat is down, i lift it up ...simple, but as men always rush to the loo at half time in the footy, or in between hands while playing online, we aint got time to worry about putting it back down :)

My issue is .... why do women insist that we close the door when we are going to the loo ?? if they dont wanna see us, dont bloody look !!!   And why do women insist on locking the bathroom door when they go .. even if its just you and them in the house ??  do women lock the bathroom door even when they are in the house on their own ??


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 26, 2005, 09:02:23 PM
For most of us it isn't the first time we've indulged in a bathroom mass debating session.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: zelda on November 26, 2005, 09:02:51 PM
lmao its me who leaves the bathroom door open and my boyfriend who shuts it when he goes :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: ariston on November 26, 2005, 09:10:39 PM
Maybe you got nothing to hide after your career as a pornstar and sven has lots to hide?? who knows?


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: charmaine on November 26, 2005, 09:35:01 PM
I leave the door unlocked , and usually have a trail of kids through the loo wanting something  , is there no safe haven ???
Paul loks it when my eldest is in residence , otherwise unlocked  ;)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Ginger on November 26, 2005, 10:39:14 PM
I think 1 comment has been overlooked several times, MEN ARE SPRAYERS!!!! not just on the floor or top of the loo, but on the underneath of the seat itself too!! I don't see why I should have to touch it thanks very much, it's not even mine for a start!

How many women do you know that do this?................ exactly, and that's why we shouldn't have to put it down.

Trace, I couldn't agree with you more on this, I am fed up of falling in the loo in the middle of the night too! and the first thought when it happens is ..... eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!  >:(

Oh, and I never lock the door although I wouldn't dream of leaving it wide open. Some things are better NOT to share.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 26, 2005, 10:50:53 PM
Well done Tikkay.

I think the girlies are now sufficiently upset.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: tikay on November 27, 2005, 12:38:51 AM

Mission accomplished......... They are sooooo easy to wind up!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: zelda on November 27, 2005, 10:59:01 AM
Ariston I told you to keep that a secret!!!  I dont think I shall be requiring your services as bodyguard again... 


 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Trace on November 27, 2005, 01:18:25 PM
I only ever shut the loo door when my kids have their friends in - otherwise door is open!!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Heid on November 27, 2005, 07:18:01 PM
Hello :)

(I can almost hear the massive intake of air in trepidation from the massed testosterone users).

I have to say, I really don't care whether men leave the seat up or down, as long as they don't piss on my copy of Fortean Times that I buy specifically for lav reading, they are ok.

I alway put the light on, and do a gentle exploratory sit down anyway.

I have to say chaps, if you have ever sat on cold ceramic at 2am when you are half asleep, you would kinda understand why some ladies get  bit peeved with it.

Heid
xx

PS Tikay, nice topic, fella :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: matt674 on November 27, 2005, 07:38:47 PM
geeez - i dont know what all the fuss is about!!!!

JUST DO WHAT I DO!!

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/wmv/monkeypee.wmv


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: ariston on November 27, 2005, 08:18:59 PM
nice :)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: matt674 on November 27, 2005, 08:24:31 PM
and i'll tell you what - once you master that, getting it in a great big toilet thing without spillage or spray is a piece of cake!!! ;)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Rupert on November 28, 2005, 03:52:01 AM
It's people who don't wash their hands after a piss that really annoy me -- the toilet seat situation I dont care about... at home I always put it down, leaves people guessing what I did last... at uni I dont care cos its just 5 blokes in my corridoor... just wash your bloody hands!!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 28, 2005, 04:19:58 AM
I wash and I wash but I can't get the blood off.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Heid on November 28, 2005, 10:21:08 AM
I wash and I wash but I can't get the blood off.

I'd get to the docs mate.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Trace on November 28, 2005, 10:58:10 AM

Mission accomplished......... They are sooooo easy to wind up!

I don't think this actually wound any of us up in the way you all expected!


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Robert HM on November 28, 2005, 10:59:51 AM
yeah whatever





 ;scarymoment;


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: Heid on November 28, 2005, 11:08:21 AM
Yeah you boys are going to have try much harder.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 28, 2005, 04:14:15 PM
Having grown up with a big sister I found the easiest way to wind a woman up was to say that you've wound her up when you've not. In doing so this would wind them up a treat, so you actually had accomplished your mssion, albeit backwards.


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: patman on November 28, 2005, 05:00:56 PM
i never lift the seat up or put it down...and that is a political statement.

until designers increase the size of the bowl for when we have bad a bad curry or our poor sight means our aim is off then how are we supposed to get it in that small space...ridiculous i say

as for washing....the bacteria has been around for years and no matter how you wash it`ll be on the soap ye left behind or in the sink or on the tap top or on your hands or on your zip or buttons....bacteria is gooooood and is to be enjoyed  - if we get rid of it then we will all end up living in oxygen tents because we have no resistance to anything

and besides that most pubs wi communal toilets have no lid by the end of the night and as i understand wimmen hovver.......or so i`m told 8)


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 28, 2005, 05:36:08 PM
that would work too


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: RED-DOG on November 28, 2005, 07:17:47 PM
No point on changing your avitar now Tank, we all know you were Thomas the Tank Engine as a kid


Title: Re: Non Poker - here's a debate that will upset the girlies......
Post by: thetank on November 28, 2005, 07:37:32 PM
I'll change it back then, just for you dog.

Now that I can do this ;chieften; instead. :D