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Title: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: George2Loose on February 11, 2009, 07:57:45 PM OK this is a hand a good mate of mine played and we've been discussing how he played it. comments on his line??? usually wudnt post up whole hand but think need to in this case:
PokerStars Game #24770442455: Tournament #139359984, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/02/10 0:49:39 GMT [2009/02/09 19:49:39 ET] Table '139359984 239' 9-max Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: JvilleWhip (1075 in chips) Seat 2: ComeOnGump (3755 in chips) Seat 3: UKAssassin (4825 in chips) Seat 4: johnny19871 (1535 in chips) Seat 5: Mr Wirchenko (6490 in chips) Seat 6: thawright (2775 in chips) Seat 7: WillyFanny (5065 in chips) Seat 8: Libats (2720 in chips) Seat 9: clifton3 (3825 in chips) thawright: posts small blind 50 WillyFanny: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to UKAssassin [Js 7s] Libats: folds clifton3: calls 100 JvilleWhip: folds ComeOnGump: folds UKAssassin: raises 250 to 350 johnny19871: folds Mr Wirchenko: folds thawright: folds WillyFanny: raises 450 to 800 clifton3: folds UKAssassin: calls 450 *** FLOP *** [4s Qh 8s] WillyFanny: bets 300 UKAssassin: calls 300 *** TURN *** [4s Qh 8s] [9c] WillyFanny: bets 700 UKAssassin: calls 700 *** RIVER *** [4s Qh 8s 9c]
Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: George2Loose on February 11, 2009, 08:15:01 PM sorryy luittle bit of background. The table has been passive and when the re raiser raises my mate put him on the following range:
JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: gatso on February 11, 2009, 08:59:08 PM when the re raiser raises my mate put him on the following range: JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK. so why does he call the rr? Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: GreekStein on February 11, 2009, 09:07:28 PM Fold pre
Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: seven2unsuited on February 11, 2009, 09:39:02 PM i would shove it in on the flop, hopefully hit the flush and double if not get the dosh out to rebuy.
Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: GlasgowBandit on February 11, 2009, 10:22:07 PM Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 11, 2009, 10:34:56 PM Hi- I'm the fish that played the hand and just to correct George- it wasn't a re-buy, it was a freezeout. The table had been v passive with a lot of limping trying to see flops. There were still about 3,000 people left in the tourney. Obv my raise pre was to try and take it down- it had been working quite effectively.
He has the range right- I put him on 10s through AA with AK and AQ Is the fold to the re-raise pre automatic considering the size of the re-raise? Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ItsMrAlex2u on February 11, 2009, 10:35:18 PM But having called pre, shove on flop.
Calling down is horrible Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 11, 2009, 10:37:21 PM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7.
Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ItsMrAlex2u on February 11, 2009, 10:40:57 PM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. Thats roughly what I said Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 11, 2009, 10:53:19 PM Why shove on the flop? Surely if my read of his range is right I only have fold equity against 2 hands- and I'm throwing all my chips in with J high. I'm still pretty deep compared to the blinds.
Again I ask- why the auto fold pre flop to the re-raise? This seems to be the point I'm missing- and I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm right and everyone else is wrong!!- but it seems to me that the reraise is too small to warrant a fold. Against his range I'm getting the right price- and it's not crippling me to call. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 11, 2009, 11:00:30 PM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. Thats roughly what I said Not really bud. You said push all-in for 4k vs a known premium hand with a J-high fd after villain bets 300. But if you take that bit out I would agree it's the same. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ItsMrAlex2u on February 11, 2009, 11:04:54 PM Sorry mate but the hand is just wrong.
Raise pre is fine Call re raise is questionable but ok. Only really questionable as you have his range at such premium hands. However the reraise is small so.... But what are you calling the re raise for? to catch a flop. You havent exactly caught it but it aint bad for calling a reraise with J 7. Either follow through with the agression or fold to the reraise IMO. His bet sizing though adds to complete mess of a hand. I suppose I can see the call for 300 as its so cheap and you were then married to it for the next "small" call. Shrug and move on. Wont learn a lot from this one as he should have been betting bigger. What do you do if he leads for 900+ on the flop? Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ItsMrAlex2u on February 11, 2009, 11:08:07 PM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. Thats roughly what I saidNot really bud. You said push all-in for 4k vs a known premium hand with a J-high fd after villain bets 300. But if you take that bit out I would agree it's the same. It was a joke based on my blunt response and your detailed one! Never mind......... Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 11, 2009, 11:20:27 PM The reason for this hand being discussed in the first place is that I know it's a hole in my game that I occasionally get too married to the pot odds and forget other factors. I called the reraise based purely on pot odds; same goes for the flat calling on the flop and turn. Because of my read of his range I decided to forgo continuing the aggression as I may have put myself in a position where I wouldn't have been able to call; or I've committed myself with a draw (which I felt no need to do considering stack sizes).
Incidentally I'm only getting the wrong price aginst his range if I leave out AK, AQ and 10s. However there is a variety of opinion on the river- I feel I made a big mistake there. If he bets 900 on the flop I fold. If he bets the right amount at any point I fold!! Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 11, 2009, 11:24:42 PM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. Thats roughly what I saidNot really bud. You said push all-in for 4k vs a known premium hand with a J-high fd after villain bets 300. But if you take that bit out I would agree it's the same. It was a joke based on my blunt response and your detailed one! Never mind......... Yeah I knew that. I thought my blunt reply was pretty funny. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MC on February 11, 2009, 11:25:16 PM Weird hand,
I think you should fold to the re-raise purely cos of the range you're putting him on. Generally you'd have to call because it's such a small raise. I actually like flop call, he's obviously got a monster...ur probs thinking AA, KK most likely at this point....shove and he probs calls, so 300 to catch a flush on the turn sounds like a good deal. However you must fold to his turn bet. It's too much of your remaining stack, and the gutshot isn't enough to help your cause... Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 11, 2009, 11:29:43 PM If he bets 900 on the flop I fold. If he bets the right amount at any point I fold!!
Considering he's sitting on a set of queens i reckon the right amount doesn't involve you folding. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 12, 2009, 03:16:52 AM And that's what his bet on the flop meant- he wanted to keep me in. But as soon as I call he knows I have SOMETHING- and with 2 draws on the turn he has to get rid of me. Leaving me with a call of 700 into a 3100 pot just won't do it- I'm getting over 4-1 on a 3-1 shot and I can't pass up a price like that- must be the Jewish blood! He's still (just) giving me the price if I only have the flush draw.
Considering that I got there- what should I have done on the river? Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: Colchester Kev on February 12, 2009, 03:21:47 AM 2 pages of ramblings and no one has commented on the oppos screen name .... I am concerned that standards are slipping here guys.
Sharpen up please ;) Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: Blatch on February 12, 2009, 03:46:11 AM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. top post Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: bolt pp on February 12, 2009, 04:18:41 AM If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7. top post Have you seen the episode of the simpsons where they're looking for krusty down on the docks and put a nickel in "dancing petes" cup, sigh, well done!! Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MC on February 12, 2009, 11:38:05 AM And that's what his bet on the flop meant- he wanted to keep me in. But as soon as I call he knows I have SOMETHING- and with 2 draws on the turn he has to get rid of me. Leaving me with a call of 700 into a 3100 pot just won't do it- I'm getting over 4-1 on a 3-1 shot and I can't pass up a price like that- must be the Jewish blood! He's still (just) giving me the price if I only have the flush draw. Considering that I got there- what should I have done on the river? A fair point, you had a few more chips to play with than I first thought, but it just feels like you're donating to his fund. AQss, AKss still possible, and you lose outs if he has a set. You probably bet about right on the river, 1800 might have been better but that's no biggie... Just don't make a habit of playing this spewy! Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 12, 2009, 01:41:01 PM And that's what his bet on the flop meant- he wanted to keep me in. But as soon as I call he knows I have SOMETHING- and with 2 draws on the turn he has to get rid of me. Leaving me with a call of 700 into a 3100 pot just won't do it- I'm getting over 4-1 on a 3-1 shot and I can't pass up a price like that- must be the Jewish blood! He's still (just) giving me the price if I only have the flush draw. Considering that I got there- what should I have done on the river? Knowing you're getting the right price to call and calling isn't bad. But I think it's important to recognise that getting involved with the hand from the start has put you in a position where you're feeling compelled to chase your oppo to hit your cards and there's no workable plan B if you don't hit your cards. This is just a classic fish strat imo. The river is a great card for you as it turns out, especially cos villain's small bets meant you could have run into a bigger flush if it came. The other bonus is it looks like you missed a fd yourself...and you know your oppo has a big hand. Man, I'd want to be paid to the max for hitting that sweet card, cos most of the time you will be mucking the river after spewing chips when you don't. You think your oppo lays down a big hand if you push? I don't. There's 3,000 players left and you just missed your fd. Betting half your stack looks stronger than pushing imo, and pushing 3,000 into 3,750 is giving villain better than 2-1 anyway. WillyFanny is funny. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: Blatch on February 12, 2009, 02:20:11 PM And that's what his bet on the flop meant- he wanted to keep me in. But as soon as I call he knows I have SOMETHING- and with 2 draws on the turn he has to get rid of me. Leaving me with a call of 700 into a 3100 pot just won't do it- I'm getting over 4-1 on a 3-1 shot and I can't pass up a price like that- must be the Jewish blood! He's still (just) giving me the price if I only have the flush draw. Considering that I got there- what should I have done on the river? Knowing you're getting the right price to call and calling isn't bad. But I think it's important to recognise that getting involved with the hand from the start has put you in a position where you're feeling compelled to chase your oppo to hit your cards and there's no workable plan B if you don't hit your cards. This is just a classic fish strat imo. The river is a great card for you as it turns out, especially cos villain's small bets meant you could have run into a bigger flush if it came. The other bonus is it looks like you missed a fd yourself...and you know your oppo has a big hand. Man, I'd want to be paid to the max for hitting that sweet card, cos most of the time you will be mucking the river after spewing chips when you don't. You think your oppo lays down a big hand if you push? I don't. There's 3,000 players left and you just missed your fd. Betting half your stack looks stronger than pushing imo, and pushing 3,000 into 3,750 is giving villain better than 2-1 anyway. WillyFanny is funny. ROFLGASMS - Thats gonna go down well :) Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: Robert HM on February 12, 2009, 02:26:22 PM ;popcorn;
Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 12, 2009, 02:46:31 PM Yeah, I agree should have shoved the river. Overthought it and thought he might fold with the 4 card straight out there- shoving looks like the missed flush and I think I get a snap call.
As I said earlier, sometimes I get too married to the pot odds and follow the hand through regardless; it's a leak that I'm addressing. I know Blatch will be very pleased to hear I have a fish strategy ;-) There was, however, a plan B when I called the initial re-raise. As I'd stated it was a tight table with most playing ABC poker. I figured that any flop bet was going to tell me pretty much where I was and as I was in position I was going to use that (had already done so on a couple of occasions previously). No excuse, pot odds dictated chasing after the flop!! It's spewy I guess, and it looks fishy, but I did have some reasoning behind it. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: MANTIS01 on February 12, 2009, 03:12:30 PM I know Blatch will be very pleased to hear I have a fish strategy
Anyone can play a hand like a fish. That doesn't mean you are one. A fish doesn't use the PHA board to discuss hands, analyse mistakes and plug leaks imo. Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: George2Loose on February 12, 2009, 04:50:24 PM I know Blatch will be very pleased to hear I have a fish strategy Anyone can play a hand like a fish. That doesn't mean you are one. A fish doesn't use the PHA board to discuss hands, analyse mistakes and plug leaks imo. True that! However it was me who posted the hand so Paul you're still a fish! :D Title: Re: Stars rebuy tourney Post by: ThudNBlunder on February 13, 2009, 01:03:48 AM I know Blatch will be very pleased to hear I have a fish strategy Anyone can play a hand like a fish. That doesn't mean you are one. A fish doesn't use the PHA board to discuss hands, analyse mistakes and plug leaks imo. True that! However it was me who posted the hand so Paul you're still a fish! :D Thanks George- nothing that everyone didn't know already ;D |