blonde poker forum

PokerStars, $5000/10000 Hold'em Tournament, 4 Players
Hand Converter (http://www.pokerhand.org/hand-converter.aspx) by Pokerhand.org (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Board:
YrrsiNN (CO): $871,531
Aryamehr (Button): $192,896
helion (SB): $97,350
MKKMOO (BB): $728,223

 Dealt to MKKMOO   2d 2h

Pre-flop:
YrrsiNN raises to $24,000, (2 folds), MKKMOO calls $14,000

Flop: ($57,000)  5c 6s 4h  (2 Players)
MKKMOO checks, YrrsiNN bets $34,000, MKKMOO calls $34,000

Turn: ($125,000)  4s  (2 Players)
MKKMOO checks, YrrsiNN bets $71,000, MKKMOO calls $71,000

River: ($267,000)  Kh  (2 Players)
MKKMOO checks, YrrsiNN bets $170,600, MKKMOO calls $170,600



Ok so the 2 short stacks are playing this like a sit and go folding every hand trying to outlast eachother, one of them has just doubled 4/5 hands ago and so now its up to the other to make his move which obviously affects the dynamics loads, myself and the other big stack have similar images, good lag.

tough spot. him cbetting this type of board then doubling the turn given board texture hasnt changed means its prolly a turn fold. Once you get to river i dunno, see so many players incapable of making thin value bets on end, might be a call given it narrows his range.

He had AQ

Given that the other 2 are folding pretty much everything I guess that you and the other big stack are still raising any 2 good connecting cards knowing that you're not going to get squeezed?

If that's the case then it's very tricky because there's a lot out there that beats you.

Has he been raising 45, 56, 67, 78 etc? He wouldn't normally with 2 short stacks but if they're totally passive he can safely make those plays here.

Personally I think I lead out for 60k on the turn. I know we don't like "find where you are bets" but I would see this more as a stopper for the river. If he raises the turn we can easily pass anyway because even if we're ahead we're very vulnerable to 2 overs that either hit or see the board pair again.

If he flats how likely is he to bet when we check the river? Unless he's got something very strong surely he's got to be careful?

If he's the bluffy type who may take a stab here we're also giving ourselves the chance to rebluff him if we fancy it.

How strong would a check raise look on the river from us? Could he see it as a full house? We're happy to have him check it down but if he wants to try it on maybe we could give him some back.

I think he had either AJ or AQ suited and you knew he would push on the river,did you insta call it?

fwiw I think he had KJ or KQ and muffed you. Bastard!!!!!!

As played, I'm surprised you don't shove the turn. Any 5, 6, A or K figures to be ugly on the river!

Does it not depend on his perception of you and what your range is in his eyes? Does his bet on the end always amount to air or the nuts. What I mean is, is he really trying to value bet on the end and if so what hands does he think you have that call, that he beats?

If his hand has showdown value, isnt he always checking behind on the river? Or can he turn up with the King after betting previous streets. This being said does it make your 22 a call always as he is more likely to have nothing than nut hands?

Basically as you can tell I havent got a clue but I am trying to understand the thought process behind both your call and his betting as it is no doubt deeper than I am able to think.

Cheers

wtf??

690k in to a 180k pot? Isn't this often called a "donk shove"? How can this possibly be a good play?

We're far too deep to shove here and make his life easy. If that's the plan we might as well pass this hand, wait 'til next time he raises and shove atc hoping that he's not got anything.

beat me to it.

looks like value town to me, given you check called this far you have to look him up on the river, he could be 3 barreling against what could well be various draws and that gives cred to you calling the end.

good level

Wow you're right, didn't realise we were quite so deep!

Looks like you played it about right once you've decided to call the flop.

It's pretty thin, I think you have to call the river cos air figures to be in his range. He's def betting AQ to represent that K, and pretty much any air hand. But of course he's gotten lucky with Kx and he might have had you the whole way. Would think he might check if Kx had him beat though....

Honest mis-read of stacks.

am i the only one who flats pre and just folds the flop this deep?

whatever the stacks are its a horrid shove, turning a hand with showdown value into a bluff. calling turn, calling river is >>>>>>>.. than shoving turn

Fair point, it's just our hand is so vulnerable to getting counterfeited...

Check-raise on the flop an option? Or does that look unconvincing on this board?

Was thinking similar.

Possibly even just pass pre. I hate deuces!!

Deuces never loses

never pass lol   look at the implied odds stack v stack vs a laggy oppo. In these spots vs a big stack i just like to set mine small pairs, if we miss just c/f flop  no biggie we have lost one of our 70bb's, next hand plz

this for me.

The betting pattern vs the board tells me villain shows up with the nuts or air in this spot. As such op plays the hand well imo.

Re-checking stacks.

Stacks re-checked.

Yes. Call every time.

If he's laggy though how about a raise pre? Maybe then we can win the pot without hiting a set?

Just inflates the pot and has no chance of getting through...makes hand harder imo.

+1

why we trying to make this hand anything other than set mining hoping to win a huge pot vs him

Are we being a little stubborn here calling all the way down thinking other big stack doesnt have it in him to attack us, the other big stack?

I totally agree with Trigg here.

fwiw i don't think he is raising anything in the 4-5-6 range as he would have to call the shortstacks jam and he hadn't put himself in those spots often in this tournament, my bb had a smooth ride 4 handed, he only opened on it a few times.

What about 4's, 5's and 6's?

As played I would snap call. Your hand looks so much like a draw that I think he would check anything with showdown value so air is a big part of his range here (obv he has a boat or air imo)

Did he show any propensity to value bet thin? (FWIW I would bet a K in this spot)

I quite like the line here.

I understand the set mining point, but if the villian is the kind of player who is capable and likely to fire three bullets with overcards, then aren't we ignoring a decent wedge of EV by not calling him down on a flop of this texture?

Agree with that George. I think he checks anything with showdown value....but i'm inclined to think that includes a K as well. If hero c-jams villain puts himself in an impossible position...and the situation means that's a completely unnecessary headache for him to deal with. So he's only really compelled to bet if he has nuts or air...so that's what i'd expect to see. Hero obv never calls a missed draw and 4-5-6 isn't obviously in his calling range either so betting the K seems rather pointless.

What is Hero has a small pocket pair?

Well, a number of players are advising c-folding the flop after a failed set-mine. So villain is gonna have to believe hero doesn't raise pre and then goes on to c-call 3 bullets with a small pp in order to v-bet a K...and that's a pretty funky story to believe.

Trigg's analysis of this hand and situation is perfect imo.

Other than just setmining and then folding I don't mind the way you played the hand. I call river too.

If I'm villain, I still value bet that river if I bink a King.

If Hero has monster and wants to check call me on two streets, and check-raise the river so be it. I doubt this happens too often though, as hero will know I'm probably keen to check behind with Ace high on the river, and so will value bet his monster on the river or raise an earlier street.

Hero might also call with ace high, or have caught a pair of 5's or 6's (or both!) on the flop.
Not value betting a paired King would be a mistake imo.

For hero to v-bet a monster on the river he's gonna have to think villain has a hand that calls that v-bet...and cos 4-5-6 isn't in the perceived range of villain that doesn't appear to be a likely scenario. Much better for hero to check to the LAG who double barrels and allow him to bluff off more chips imo.

hmm,  strange one,  Whats range did you have him on James?

Why not raise his turn bet ?  you know you are calling the river hence a turn raise may be cheaper on the stack and give you the confirmation of where you are in the hand.

we are not beating much, and unless i was in one of my " fuck you " moods i probably would have folded on the flop.

What do you thing your edge is against this group of opponents? 

did he take some timbe before his riverbet?

how confident were you with the call?

That's why if I have monster in heroe's position I usually raise earlier street.

All the more reason for villain to value bet his King on river. With heroes line, monster is not likely.

When his hand is good with the original line, he gets the extra bet. When his hand is good with the turn raise, he wins nothing extra. Only way he'll get a call on the turn is if he's beat.

He can spend the same number of chips with his line, and when you "find out where you are in the hand" by means of a showdown, the information is usually much more reliable.

Folding and calling are the only real choices you can take on the turn. Raising "to find out where you are" is nearly always a bad play and it certainly would be in this spot.

Never raise for information, raise for chips. :)

Do you think it really is a mistake to not v-bet the King tank? I mean a little lost value when you ain't absolutely sure you're good vs taking a big hit to your tourney position if you're wrong seems marginal to me. If his king's good villain wins a nice pot checking behind...but if he bets hero must find a hand to call...which is iffy...and if he faces a c-raise he will be in a world of pain. With the two shorties in play not v-betting only the one binked pair vs the only guy who can ruin your tourney is perfectly ok imo. It's easier to v-bet the king on villain's behalf when we know we're holding 2-2...although i must admit it is entirley possible that you would be correct to do so.

Thants not really what i was getting at Tank, this is a weak holding, and whilst we may win an extra bet IF we are good, why not win a slightly smaller bet incase wer are in a bad spot here. no if we raise the turn, it has the same risk but i would say the rewards are more balanced as we could make a better hand fold.


If we get reraise we know its a no fly zone anyways

Yes I do.

A good player won't often play trips or a straight the hand the way hero played this hand and so I think we're getting check raised on the river very rarely.
Re. tourney position, as chip leader and relatively deep, we should be using our stack to take advantage of edges and making value bets wherever value bets are profitable.
We're not going to be among the shorties and still going to have a playable stack if we're wrong.

Just to divert slightly Flushy, what were your thoughts on "Aryamehr"? I've faced him a few times in the cheap stars Deepstack and wasn't impressed with his play at all so was very surprised to see him at the FT here.

point 1, i asked what range James had the opponent on, not what i think he thinks.

point 2, setting him up to bluff the river?  obv not as it was a flat call on the river, bluff calling with no more action is a good thing now?

point 3, possibly missing lots of EV but thats why poker has lots of different styles, it keeps the game interesting.

Point4, From the info in the OP i am taking this as a real played out hand. not made up

Point 5, if we are supremely confident why not reraise for stacks?

Being supremely confident that the call is correct is not the same as being supremely confident that our hand is going to win.

my original question was wrong, it should have been how confident are we that we are winning when we call here.

i thought that came through.

He's probably snapping the river. Turn call is the tougher desicion imo.

I dunno dude...if hero plays 5-5 the exact same way vs LAG villain...obv with a c-raise on the river instead of a c-call...that looks like a pretty fecking good line to me. Undecided about v-betting the K really.

Check calling two streets and checking river with intention to raise is a pretty tez line with 55 against LAG when both deep here. (imo)

We're not giving him the oppurtunity to give his stack to us him like that.

I prefer to bet flop and let him raise, then flat the raise.
Hope he tries to push you off turn, then crai and hope he shrug calls coz pot is so huage by then.

With the passive line we might be guaranteed at least one c-bet from the LAG, but I prefer to look to stack him.

+ lots of cards can come on turn that will either kill all our action or lose us the pot. (ie 4 to a str8 on board)

Pretty disastrous is villain has a big pocket pair and a seven lands on the turn. (obv even worse if that pair is 88 ;) )

Agreed that is better.

Cool.

If anyone is reading this and lost btw, Mantis and I are back from being the villain, we're now the hero again, but our hole cards have changed to 55 and we've binked a set. :)

small turn raise does stop him value betting thinly against us on the river. infact i think small turn CR is fantastic for our hand in this spot, protects when we are ahead, virtually never gonna get bluffed and stops him making thin value bets on the river because of implied threat.

He doesn't have to 3-bet with air often to make any equity gained by the turn raise shrivel and die.

I definetly don't fold on a 4 5 6 flop after flatting pre with deuces here.

Thats a good flop for our hand!

I play it the same way as Flushy i think. We still beat loads of hands on the end.

I reckon the other guy has  Qc Ts

and the outcome was?

Ah lol yeah well basically i saw his range as 'high cards' and was pretty sure he was going to double barrel a board this good as most people will just give up on the turn given the stack sizes, my plan was to check fold the river if he triple barrelled, the problem was the river was such a great card for him to bluff that now its possible he can triple barrel, if it was a T or something i happily fold.

Anyway i called he had K9o, sigh.

I like it, ul.