blonde poker forum

Details are a little hazy, but this hand has been bothering me since Friday night.

Blinds were 300/600/50, about 23 left of 84

I'm UTG with c7,000 chips. I've played tight generally and rarely got to a point where my cards are seen.
I doubled up a little earlier with KQ in the SB and a Bind v Blind hand saw two Q s on the board, BB had Q6 :-)

I have KQ and decide to limp in and await developments

3 folds round to short stack who shoves for c3,500 at which I decide I am going to call, only to have my decision paused when the guy to his left shoves over the top and has me very comfortably covered.

I've not had long at this table and don't know either of the two others in this hand

All fold round to me...

I would fold now given the previous action.

I would probs shove all in preflop tho in this situation. You have only 11 and a half BBs and im guessing the table was 7 or 8 handed given there was 23 left.

Shove pre and pick up the 1,300 most of the time.

+1 end of.

as played lets limp call just to tilt anyone at the table that thinks they have an edge in live poker.

not sure I understand that bit Alex

Definitely a shove pre. And if you aren't prepared to shove, folding is better than limping.

As played, fold now...

I think you can find a fold pre but pretty nitty

i think limps bad

raising folding isnt great either

so shove or fold pre for me

insta fold now. preflop im undecided between jamming and passing. at this point in the tourney though theres no reason to be limping into pots, especially in early position.

You have 10bb's and a tight image so not insta-snap-open-shoving is a real mistake. The only worse mistake I can think of is limping to await developments. No wait, an even worse mistake would be calling now. Don't get into the habit of limping UTG with a marginal hand and no chips. It is a strat with no positives.

I have to agree with mantis. KQ is a shat hand UTG with 11 bigs, open fold imo.

As played insta-fold... ldo

I would prefer to jam virtually any 2 on the button rather than shove KQ into 7 players, my preference is to fold pre. 

Definetly fold now.

really?

I'm getting the impression that my initial call wasn't a good move... why did I do it?

I don't like shoving UTG with 7 or 8 players behind me unless I definitely want a call. (AA yes/KK yes/QQ maybe)

There were shorter stacks than mine on the table and tbh, if the shortstack's shove had got round to me uncalled I was definitely calling - and that may be a problem for me, but as I saw it, KQ isn't in bad shape against almost any hand without an A, and plays marginally better against small pairs than AK does (very marginally, but better nonetheless).

The raise from the player behind shortie made me reconsider and I folded.

The opps tabled something like J 8 off (shortie) and A9.... (sorry my memory is shot from too little sleep since Firday morning. I do know that i was surprised by the raise if not by the ATC shove.

laugh away, I can take it!

Umm, I think so, although the 400 extra for ante's may sway me on reflection... Close imo

 :)

This isn't bad, but it's not an either-or choice right now. Firstly that opportunity has to present itself by everyone folding round to you...and with stacks like 3.5k knocking about that opportunity might not present itself in the next couple of hands. Then if you do push successfully you get back the stack you've got now so you don't make any progress for that move and we find ourselves back in this predicament again. If you do get called by pairs you wont be in good shape at all. And finally a tight player pushing UTG does carry some weight in a live game vs a button push.

I was young and full of certainty once too.

Could you clarify why you felt highlighting this specific part of my post was necessary?

I am a recreational poker player and had stepped up a level to play in a £75 FO using my own money to do so. I felt that in general I raised my game on the night in the same way that my golf game has been raised in the past by playing against better players, on better courses.

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe), but I had two significant hands late on of which this was the first.

Trying not to see this from a results-oriented view (K on flop, K on turn) I wanted to get views on my decision. I've had them and acknowledge that a shove pre might be the way, but I have to say that my own poker/character defects will probably always prevent me from making that particular move with 11+BB.

This is actually a decent post Mantis...  Do you shove with no ante's?  At what depth of BB's do you NOT shove here?

David, people like pushing their chips in way more than they like calling their chips in. If you push only when you want a call you will be disappointed a lot of the time when everyone folds. In this instance the likes of J-8 and A-9 will go away when you push and you'll buy yourself some valuable time. People may not believe you (your image says otherwise) but they will still need a hand to call with, and the chances there's a monster out there is pretty slim. People may call you with pairs but that's kinda ok under the circumstances considering your aim is to win all the chips rather than outlast Joe who's 2nd in the league.

Not sure really bud, game dependant I suppose. Last night I shoved 5-5 UTG with 18k @ 1000/2000/100. Is that bad? Got called by 7-7 in 2nd position and A-Q in bb. Guy with 7-7 won over 60k and had dancin chips. But calling in 2nd pos with 7-7 was v marginal (guy shrug-called thinking he was in bad shape).

5-5 vs A-Q (having to call) would have been +1 imo.

Can't argue with this - as I said, it is perhaps a flaw in my game that I am reluctant to make these moves from early positions. I'm improving though, there was a time when I would allow myself to get down to a level where my shove was an autocall from the BB and not a hard decision for the SB.

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

Well put

Couldnt let him be proud of his performance guys?

It's the hand analysis board, not the clap on the back whatever board.

MC was politely pointing out an area where his thinking may be flawed.

Fair comment.

But regardless of my exit point, I still felt I played well. You have no way of knowing if that's the case so you'll have to take my word for it.

But whatever ... tbh I've heard enough on this thread to accept that

a) Limping UTG with KQ is not considered a good idea by the majority
b) Folding to the specific circumstances of the shove and re-raise is the unanimously recommended line.


Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

wouldnt limp always raise/shove

2

[ ] this is helpful

He wasn't trying to be helpful, just trying to boost his post count to reach 300.

But he's right.  With so few BBs, you don't want to be limping with anything really. With AK you would be shoving it all in.

This is pretty close between shoving and folding, i would shove but it is pretty close to neutral equity. Limping is of course really bad.

To pick up a few point from earlier in the thread
Chipprince is right here Alex, shoving 23o from the button has about the same expectation as shoving kq from utg cEV wise given standard calling ranges. In fact in live poker shoving 23o is probably better cos you get a lot of bad nits. Whereas shoving kq changes little in equity whether people are tight or not, due to having to push through so many people.

Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

If that was the case there would be a massive difference in your strategy. If you had A-K you would be limping to trap...as opposed to limping to see how things develop with the K-Q. The important point to appreciate is you don't have enough chips to limp-fold UTG at this point. So you should only be limping in this situation with that question already answered. Limping is better than standard raising at a busy table with your stack imo, but pushing is never bad in this spot either, and yes you want those chips in the middle no question.

Seriously why do people do this? The chances of me staking someone who i suspect of doing this are virtually zero.

I think I should probablly still be posting my HH in the Learning Centre, but wth, I'm here now.

I confess that one of my mistakes in this hand / the late stages of this tourney stems from my not playing antes very often.
That, added to my general nit approach stopped me from making the right move here.

I need more experience / more trips to DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)

Thanks to the last few posters for restoring my faith in this forum.

80+ posts <300
[ ] will rush to  staking board when I reach 300
[ ] would attract stakers

You could limp here, but you're going to be making this play quite a few times with less premium hands, and surely you don't want to highlight to the more observant players that you want someone to play back at you in this case, and you want them to fold to a shove in another case?

When I get down to around 10bbs I obv wanna get my chips in the middle with a premium hand. If the table is busy...and if the table has finger-on-the-trigger-shorties...and if people aren't paying attention then limping has a decent chance of achieving this. If I do achieve this and stay in the tournament then I'm working 20+bb's and wont have to push again anytime soon...so the problems of balancing a pushing range will be behind me. And then you can limp from early with a bigger stack with a view to betting the flop vs suspiscious oppos. So range balancing works a number of ways. Anyway buddy the point was that limping is better than raising UTG from a ss cos even the non-observant players can see you've got premium when you put 1/3+ of your stack in.

Not trying to suggest that you didn't play well! It's not like limp/folding KQ here is the biggest error, just a standard kinda mistake.

AK I probably still just shove with this chipstack. Whenever I try limping in these spots, I get 5 callers and the flop comes 567 of a suit I don't possess!

Stick with PHA mate. I know a lot are cruel but it's a "cruel to be kind" thing. You'll get ripped a lot but so does everyone else and everyone knows it's all about improving everyone's game.

As for the hand mate the main reason for not calling imo is that you need to see all 5 cards to max the value of your hand.

You say that you call to see what develops which to me means that if you miss you're passing.

This means that if you happened to be up against someone with a small pair you didn't get your 50 50 shot against him as you didn't get to see all 5 cards.

Shove the lot in and you get 50:50 against a lot of hands that will call you 66 - JJ depending on stacks. 40:60 against some hands that call you A10, AJ possibly weaker Ax dependant on stacks.

Also a lot of hands that are beating you will pass and a lot of hands that can't get away from a hit flop will pass pre.

When the stacks get this short anyone who hits any part of the flop is getting the lot in. They won't be bothered about kickers if they happen to have made top pair.

If you have a big hand QQ, KK, AA then you can flat call for precisely the above reason. Anyone who hits anything of the flop will get the lot in and you will usually be ahead. If not then it's just unlucky.

All that being said there is also nothing wrong with passing KQ pre here. Just never flat.

I like the limp call line with AK.

On a note related to the tangent, I wish people (namely paulhouk03) were given the benefit of the doubt with regard to increasing their post count. Slam them if and when they make a suspiciously timed staking post but not before.

It's not as if everything kinboshi posts is a quality well thought out contribution, or my own for that matter. (most of what I post is utter tosch) Maybe he just wants to contribute to the forum, don't know how long that's going to be the case if every one of his posts is scrutinized for legitimacy.

tank - I posted about him posting to increase his post count as we have been deleting lots of inane two-word posts, posted obviously to increase his post count and nothing else.  When he actually writes a proper post he actually does have something to contribute.

Hmmm over 50 words for you there Dan.

Not sure whether that should count towards the 300 worthwhile posts you require for staking.

How many are you on now?

I'm nearly there, surely?

No one would be mad enough to stake me though :D

Paul making a lot of two word posts may be a fact (to use the parlance of the day).

You assigning his motive for doing so as to increase his post count and nothing more is certainly not a fact, it is pure conjecture and I assume that someone of your intelligence must be able to see that.
A lot of people make two word posts to join in with the community feel of this forum and don't give two hoots about their post count. I know I don't.

When he gets slammed for the lack of content in his posts, it reeks of bullying to me, and makes me slightly uncomfortable. Now it's the mods joining in too, I want to say my piece about this.

If he is just trying to increase his post count to get to 300, and this is pissing the members off, then you deleting his posts here and there just prolongs the whole process and makes no sense whatsoever from the point of view of appeasing members. I might understand a policy of warning then ban for making lots of small posts, might not agree with it but at least it would make more sense.

It's not paul I'm worried about, he seems to have a thick enough skin. It's the people who are just lurking on blonde, potential new members and valuable contributors, some of whom may be new to poker, maybe some are dyslexic, or English isn't their native language. They're going to get discouraged from making a post if the general atmosphere is that all new members posts are assesed for content.
It makes blonde look clique and I hate that. Kinboshi and tank et al, can post pisch, but no-one under 300 posts can. They MUST be after a quick stake.

So this is just a general appeal to those who consider themselves the last bastions of common sense. If you think a poster is posting a lot of tosh to qualify for staking eligibility, then if and when that day comes, don't fooking stake them. It's your money and your choice.
To the mods... BAN or leave the fook alone. Deleting half their posts is a waste of your time and prolongs the period whereby members are getting pissed off at the offending poster.

Have to agree with this.

It also makes it more difficult to assess whether someone is a genuine poster if all of their crap posts are deleted.

If someone is asking for a stake the first thing I do is check their recent posts. If they all look ok because the mods have deleted the shit ones I am getting false info on the person.

If I can see loads of 2 word posts I know exactly what I am letting myself in for.

Just another thought to add to Tank's.

OK then

That's a very good point Mr. Pie.

+1

Can someone please rob all of Mantis's bankroll and reset his post count to zero please.

Good posts - both Tank and MrPie.  Points taken on board and I'm sure they'll be discussed.

1st time in ages but i disagree mate. in todays game i think people are a lot more positionally aware re shoving and effective calling ranges imo. also as mantis points out we let the blinds go through us and we are in a much worse spot when antes are in play. shove still looks strong and folds out stuff that would call normally LP/btn/blind coups, positional effect of our shove means even smart players in MP are reluctant to call/iso properly because of ppl still to act. I dont think its close, shove >>>>> wait for button.

I should have added in vacuum with same chipstacks, that shoving 11bb from the button with 23o is approximately the same as shoving kqo 7 handed from utg. Taking into account wider calling ranges from the blinds. It is about neutral equity at 16% calliing ranges 23o from the button, cEV wise.

 ;applause;








That is to say, I enjoyed this post, I appreciated the wit on a number of levels.

I disagree with that.

After eating the blinds and antes in the next few hands, we're shoving ~9 bigs rather than shoving ~11 bigs.
While obviously we have slighlty less fold equity, I don't think it's accurate to categorize it as being in a much worse spot.

Completely different story if we have 7 bigs UTG obv.

whew - I generated a 4 page thread! (albeit only 50% of the posts are actually analysing the hand....)

To summarise

shove>fold>flat
and as played, fold to the shove and raise

message received, let's see if it sinks in.

My doubts arose because of the outcome, and the fact that a call would have bumped me up to something around average stack...

anyways

Thanks to all for their advice and comments

i'm off to draft a post about raising 72 from the button in the first level of a 100BB tourney..

It's not a spot that's much worse...but we'd be shoving 9 bb's to win 11 bb's, whereas here we're shoving 11 bb's to win 13 bb's. So if it ain't any better why opt for that 2nd choice?

Mantis poker philosophy is so feckin intricate it gives me a headache to cut posts this short tbh.

Coz pushing KQ UTG is tez. :)

LoL

See the way I see things if you guys were quicker on the uptake my explanations wouldn't have to be so fecking long would they? However, on this occasion I find it difficult to mount a defence against tez so we'll have to call it a draw.

I'll take it.

OK. But you can't use tez again now.