blonde poker forum

I am playing 39k, blinds 600-1200-100, second position.

Before this hand - we are 10 hands into day 2. The table appears to be fairly nice, except for Jamie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=2850) Brown (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=2850) (young very active player) and a couple of other young players who look good and confident (hard to know after 10 hands though). Of the first 10 hands, Jamie has opened 4 (to 3300). In one instance he was re-raised to 8200 by a player in late position. Jamie called with  Jh Th and knocked the other player out (who had  9s 4c) on a flop of  9h 7c 3h after the  Kh hit the turn. In another instance he flatted a large (6200) mid position raise from the button, called the c-bet on the flop and passed to a shove on the turn. I have opened one hand, taking the blinds with a raise to 3200.

THE ACTUAL HAND - I Open to 3200 with  7c 7s and recieve one flat call from Jamie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=2850) Brown (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=2850) on button.

Flop  Aspades Qs 8c

i c-bet 5000, jamie calls. I felt at this point it was fairly tough to get a good read on his hand - he was clearly generally confident playing post-flop, especially in position. This could be a hand like  Ac Jc, but i feel that he would more likely raise this hand (you may well disagree) and would also raise with a spade draw (as he had done when eliminating the other player 3 hands previously). Most likely i think he is floating, hoping to take it on the turn if i check to him (as most players would give up here without an ace in their hand), but equally he could have a monster (88, AQ, maybe AA, and perhaps QQ - though maybe some of the time he would be re-raising these hands pre-flop) or just a medium Ace or a hand like KQ

on the  Js turn i have just over 30k, there is ~18k in the pot. I decide to play for a check-raise all in (as i still believe his flop call was most likely a float). If he bets a large proportion of the pot (~14k) he must have either a monster or more likely have been floating, so in the latter situation my shove can still get him to fold. If he checks behind i figure he has Ax or KQ/QJ, so give up on the pot.

In the actual event he bet 8800. This bet is more scary, as it feels like he is leaving me room to shove, so in my mind his range shifts more towards the monster end. However, against most players the size of his bet on the turn is unlikely to change the outcome - most would fold unless they had a reasnoble A or better. I still made the shove for just over 30k, which he snap-called with  Kh Th

no miracle spade on the river

so...

1) should i c-bet the flop?
2) does my plan on the turn make sense?
3) is my big mistake continuing with this plan after he has bet the turn fairly small - can i interpret this small bet as a show of strength, asking me to shove?
4) should i just give up on any turn? - i feel this is weak, as the float feels so likely, but on this table there are certainly weaker players against whom i could concentrate my efforts, so maybe it is best to just avoid a big pot against him?
5) how nice would it have been for the miracle spade to hit the river? :)

would appreciate any input!

Tom in future I would post without results and maybe post hand street by street to see what people would do. Poker players are so sresults orientated don't you know?

and yet you shove. even though you say he needs to have a reasonable Ace or better...the above firmly goes into that category.

you thought one thing..and did the other...

First thoughts, well laided out, gives us a nice feel.  


You say you feel he's floating the flop, fair enough, he seems quite loose, but for me the turn completes, or least beats 77, as so many floats/semi-floats get there as its an over-card/flush-maker/2 straight maker, it might be weak, but i'm giving up on the turn here, your only beating a complete and utter-bluff, loads of hands beat you, even hands which when you raise may think they're beat will still call because of odds...  I fold the turn, play up until then is standard

Honestly against a good player out of position i wouldnt even fire the flop. Id giveup there.

yeah i agree with this.  i just cbet then give up or c/fold in this spot vs some1 capable.

Have to go along with this plan.

The c bet is fine but after that it's just too tricky. Tbh depending on how active you've been and how often you c bet I might not even fire at the flop.

Everyone c bets the ace here so he's probably not scared of that anyway.

It's not like you're leaving yourself short in any way so just let it go.

You are playing a game of poker against seemingly loose, even reckless opponents. This is a very active table with villain raising 4 out of the first 10 hands, another villain 3-betting with 9-4, and then getting looked up by 10-J. The way for you to beat this game is definitely not jumping feet first into it with a loose, even reckless strat of your own. I would forget about the justification of your strat and how that may or may not make sense, I mean any strat can make sense from certain angles. The only point you need to absorb is this....you were pushing a weak hand on a v poor board into a game that required you to wait for strength. And you didn't do that. I wouldn't even c-bet this flop in a loose game vs a loose oppo and agree with those who would give it up. There will be plenty of easy chips on offer around this table when you have a proper hand imo.

no, i dont think i said he requires Ax or better to make this bet. i am actually saying that i believe he may have a monster (88, AQ, maybe AA, QQ, AJ or as in the actual event, KT), or may have nothing, having floated the flop. i think he most likely checks Ax behind. the bet size shifts his range slightly towards the strong end imo, but at the time i thought he was firing air enough of the time (in fact a large proportion of the time) so carried out the bluff. obviously i got it wrong here.

So would you not be 3-betting some of Jamie's opens fairly light? I would.

yep, completely see your points here. this also seems to go along with most of the other points made. feels like i came out and played this hand in too aggro a way considering the table. i think the way i played the hand against this oppo is standard before the turn. my play on the turn i feel is a good one in some spots, specifically against this kind of player (likely to float), but only when the table is stronger and chips with otherwise be hard to accumulate. in this spot it is simply one step too far i think. i clearly have to work on toning down my aggression when there are chips to be made by playing a simpler game

however, i feel it would have been good to see the general response to see if it was any different if i had not revealed the result - good point george - oops

yes i certainly would. though i can appreciate against a talented player there is a need to limit how often you do this to stop him 4-bet shoving.

fair enough. i think it would be weak to check-fold the flop on a strong table - you are just setting yourself up to get lots of resistance from then on. but yes, on this table the check-fold on the turn seems like the right option

just out of interest, what do you do on a  2d turn? on this turn i think my play makes a lot more sense, but do you think it would be better to carry it out or to still give up? cheers for the input!

Do you mean pre flop here Cos? This is very different to shoving his open on the turn surely?

It's another one of those turning a hand in to a bluff things for me. I wouldn't be able to work out what the 8000 bet meant on the turn but I certainly wouldn't fancy sticking the lot in to find out.

If we're right and he has air it's all good but he can easily snap us off with other hands that are beating us.

I'm thinking of any hand that involves the K or 10 of spades. If he's hit part of the flop with the flush draw as backup he's probably calling no matter what. Any Q, J or 8 combined with the K or 10 of spades is a call even if he puts you on the ace and thinks he's behind.

There just seems far more that can go wrong here than right. If you were short then fair enough but the fact that you've got plenty left means that you don't need to make this move right now.

Nah dude, I don't think I would. The guy has demonsrated that 3-betting him carries very little FE. He's just been 3-bet and continued with his J-high holding anyway only to knock out 3-bet guy. So what would 3-betting this guy actually achieve if you don't have a hand? It only serves to inflate the pot and tempt you to continue betting light on the flop...and this is the same strat as the 7-7...pushing with weakness...a strat to be avoided in this game imo. It's ok to know this guy opens light and it's ok to donate a few blinds to him in the meantime because when you catch him he'll pay you in full.

Out of interest, when he flats your flop bet, do you decide to c.r.a.i. at this point, or was your decision solely taken when the Js is dealt?

My point about 3-betting pre wasn't to Tom about this hand in particular - it was to Mantis who suggested that we essentially nit it up when I think there is a lot of benefit in an intelligent player like Tom being able to 3-bet the regular opens of Jamie Brown. I'm not saying put it in his eye with 92 but I'm happy to play back at him with decent hands.

Villain should also know calling Tom's 3-bets with hands like j10 is prob not going to be a good strat or +EV.

I think rocking up against this guy is the perfect strat really. He calls 3-bets light and Tom says his floating potential is very high. So against this type of villain we can go to town with him when we get a hand. 3-bet pre with strength, c-bet the flop, check the turn, would be how I want to play this particular guy in this particular game. I don't see why we're in such a rush. 

One thing me and Tom were discussing last night- if Jamie misses the turn and Tom checks is Jamie basically betting 100% of the time???

Almost certainly. I don't think he's calling the flop to hit his middle pin.

i actually decided to c.r.a.i as soon as he flatted. i believe my major mistake was not reacting enough to the  Js turn and changing the plan

definately. he is just too good a player to be calling for value here - there is none! this must be a float with intention of taking it if i show weakness on the turn

This^^

Theres no need to try to win every hand imo, if hes flatting 3bets with J10ss etc there will be much easier ways to bust him than with 77 on AQ8.  I think the best option is to just check fold the flop.  I don't think this is weak either, seems pretty standard.   If it encourages players to play back at you, you can adjust to this later on.

Just read the OP and not the replies so sorry if this has been said before but cb'ing this flop then check jamming turn is a good line UNTILL the Js peels off as its about the worst card in the deck if he has a draw he has either hit or made a pair (which he isn't going to bet fold) so right idea but with this turn card just cry and c/f

Nice debate Tom, always intereting to hear you (and ur brothers) thoughts.

 I think the serious headaches you are causing yourself here vastly outweigh the fact that we might in some way get exploited. So we dont cbet 100% of our range and are capable of check folding AXX flops oop with the initiative. So what! In live mtts this will so rarely impact on our lifetime performance that we might aswell count the significance of it as nil.

I dislike cbetting, our hand has little flexibility on later streets but most importantly we are oop against a strong confident opponent on a highly positionally significant board. We dont have to win every pot to win this thing.

I actually think c-folding without a c-bet in this example can improve your image in the game overall. Against the aggro players you will look weak/exploitable and for a future trapping strat vs them you want to appear this way. It also adds credibility to your future c-bet bluffs vs the tighter players.