blonde poker forum

Not my hand, but one that occurred and involved a mate recently.

Live MTT 10,000 stacks, fourth hand.

In BB having folded first 3 hands.
One limper, SB makes up, 46off - check

Flop

3 5 7 rainbow
SB bets 150 (pot)

mate raised to 500
limper folds
SB reraises to 1500

action?

Seen as there isnt a hand we're behind too, shove it in...

4 bet and hope oppo has a set and shoves.

If we flat here I think our hand is almost face up. It's too obvious that we are strong so we have to hope oppo is also strong.

Also by flatting there are a few cards that could stop us getting paid as they could scare off a set. If a 4 or 6 come on the turn then a set is likely to lay down in a deepstack against one of the blinds.

Try to build the pot as big as possible now. If he passes then it doesn't matter because you weren't getting any more out of him anyway.

Raise to 3750 coz we want him to think we are 5-betting light and can fold to his 6-bet.

CALLLLL!!!!!!!

any other play is ridic unless opponent is incompetent.

I'm with Alex, I flat call here. Shoving does nothing for you IMO.

What are we repping with a call?

Are we trying to pretend we're on a gutshot or just hoping that he catches up a bit?

Unless he's on an over pair and makes a set I can't see how we get any more out of him later on than we do now.

Not trying to knock the call I'm just interested to hear your thinking behind it.

I agree that we shouldn't shove but again I can't see the benefit of the call.

We're deep stacked which gives us the chance to 4 bet to induce a shove so why not take it?

Coz opponent probably folds unless he is completlely useless and incapable of folding 2 pair/overpair to our 5-bet. He is surely only shoving a set ? We have flopped the nuts and have 3 more streets to get all his chips in. He can have air here aswell and we have more chance of letting him bluff off the rest of his chips if we call the flop. It looks an awful lot like he is trying to represent the hand we have.

He is never bluffing this with air against an SB who's just made up unless the board does something weird. Not given the action on the flop.

What card can possibly make him more confident on the turn and enable us to get more chips in? Maybe if he's got an overpair and the board pairs he might like it a bit better. If he's got tptk (doubtful) and picks up a flush draw possibly.

If he's putting more chips in on the turn he'll put them in now imo. The flat call looks equally as strong as the re raise and gives him less chance of making a costly mistake.

I disagree. We are 4 hands in - opponent could be a maniac and 4-betting here with air.

There is 3000 in the pot and we both have 8000 behind. If he bets on turn (likely) then he is basically committed to the hand so we have no need to put him to a big decision on the flop to get all his chips.

(Can I make the prediction that villain has 57 and stacks hero when he fills up on turn or river ?)

Flat all day long.

3betting here only gets villian to stack off with a very small part of his range. We can widen range up massively by flatting here, i completely disagree this turns our hand face up, unless we have tonnes of history and from the op that seems very unlikely.

call, watch it pair up immediate service on the turn and throw up.

Live game?

THis is prime for a bit of speech play, to induce the call afetr a shove.

We do't know what oppo is like yet...he could well have an overpair of some sort...I hope for him he hits his set on the turn..or another non-scare card.
He would surely fold JJ etc to any shove/4 bet...but a check call and non-scare card on the turn....check it to him..might induce an extra bet out of him.

How does 2 betting then flatting a 753 flop mean we have 46 only? We can have 24/68, random 7's,  overpairs, pair and str8 draw, 2 pair or sets

Obv flat there is over 3k in now which is going to be easy to get in down the streets.

Opinions seem to be divided but we seem to be looking to find the best way to get all the chips in?

Our hero shoved, happy for that to be the end of the hand when the SB folded.

The SB called

what would you need to be thinking at this stage if you were that SB?

what cards would make you call your tourney life on the flop of hand 4? Even if you thought our hero was 'at it'?

He shoved 8k into the 3k pot ? I think I would need 46 to call to be honest. I think your mates push is awful but does look bluffy so I won't be surprised to hear that some nutter called with 78. Also, why would he be happy for that to be the end of the hand when he has the nuts ?

From what you are saying I assume SB calls with a draw and hits but calling here with 77 would be pretty marginal as your mate really cant have anything other than 46.

What??? I don't get it, does your mate hate money? The only reason to overshove here is to get villian to level himself and make some kind of hero call, we sure as hell don't want villian to fold.

Well as sb, i am calling with 46 and all sets (though with some history bottom set is a fold occasionally), 75o probably an interesting discussion. Lol @ folding 77 here.

He loves money, and loves poker (except when he hates it)

OK, so the shove is not a good move for all sorts of reasons but what really surprised me was the call and I'm interested now to see if anyone can make a case for calling with the SB hand. Which wasn't a set btw

The hand interested me, not just because it involved a mate, but also because the way it played out is alien to my thoughts on live poker.

In my mind the structure (this was the Welsh APAT btw) doesn't encourage hands like this this early. Although  by time this played out, there had already been an exit.

A few people have said that flatting is stronger than shoving - curious to know the thinking behind this as surely someones range to flat 1k more is a shedload wider than shovelling their whole stack across the line in a deepstack?

FWIW I weaklead the turn here and hope he raises. If I get flatted I overbet river.

4 hands in, opponent 5-bets all-in for 10k. You have 8500 left, 11.5k in the pot -  blinds are 25/50.

How is that an easy call with 77 in a limped pot and the board is 357 ?

Answer taken from OP....'Live MTT'

No need to thank me

Not saying I would fold but its not an easy decision. 75 would be an easy pass but I would probably throw up in my mouth if I have a set here when board doesn't pair.

Opponent dependant but lots of dumb live players will happy get bottom two in at this stage that we can't pass 77 here. He shows up with undersets & random dumbness too often to pass 77.

This is why I don't think the over bet shove is that bad.

Obv. it depends on the thinking behind it though.

If it was a shove because he just wanted to take the pot on the flop, then I think it was a bad play.
If it was a shove because he thought his opponent would call with hands like pocket aces, kings and sets for example then I think it was feasible to believe this would work and is a good shove.

I agree with this line. 1kish on the turn could well induce a shove and with 5kish in pot and 7ish behind the overbet is likely to get called if he just flats the turn.

If he leads out on the turn our line doesn't matter tho as its all going in no matter what we do. Nothing wrong with min-raise on turn or flatting to go all-in on river.

So you're saying that people call lighter in a live MTT they have driven/flown or whatever to get to, than if they were in an equivalent priced/rewarded tournament online?

The main reason that this hand can play out this way is that it's live.

You really don't get many 4 bets or 5 bets even when you're this deep.

If someone 3 bets me and I've got the nuts I'm happy to 4 bet him because I'm confident he's got a hand strong enough to shove.

Online this hand plays differently. You flat online because there is a much higher chance of your oppo trying to steal because they see the weakness in your betting pattern.

In a live game we have already shown strength and I honestly think that flatting makes us look even stronger.

Sure this hand is a cooler but unless you happen to be up against a very good player and you can somehow hide the fact that you've flopped the nuts (not easy live) then if it's not going in on the flop it's highly unlikely that it's going in.

No he's saying that people donk shove lighter so we can adjust our calling range accordingly.

It's similar but different.

OK forget this hand, explain to your mate that this is the worst thing that could possibly happen in this spot and get him to re-think his tournament game completely.

what hand?

Yeah what Matt said^^

It's obviously dependant on a lot of factors like buy in/structure/opponent but you will get a better standard of player in an online £300 MTT than a live £300 for example.

It's not that live players are willing to stack off lighter than they should, they just DO because they often just consider their own hand and not that of their opponent. 'Wow bottom two, in a 12-bet pot, I better shove to protect my hand'.  

What Flushy means is your mates' thinking is ridiculously flawed.

How could he possibly be happy that his opponent folded when he was holding the nuts? He should have been working out how best to get the chips in the middle, not scaring villain and making him fold.

This is very true.

Whilst I like the 4 bet because we are deep I hate the shove particularly if it was because he wants to take it there and then.

There is absolutely nothing to be scared of. You want to get all the chips in and need to find the best way of doing it.

Your friend was lucky that his oppo had exactly the only hand that can call him here. By shoving he gets 2 pair, probably bottom set and possibly middle set to pass. Terrible poker.

He was lucky but then got coolered (I assume). One of them things.

We don't know what he had yet. From the other thread I'm guessing 68 which in no way should be calling the shove. The shoves is actually excellent if villain calls here with 8 high. The shove is horrible but what can you say about the call ?

Can you just do us all a favour and tells us where these guys play ?

Unless it's with 55, 77 or 46 then it's laughable.

I think the other thread was hypothetical hence I'm still going by my original 77 guess.

Live players shove lighter than internet players? WTF?? In this example, having driven all the way to a live nitty event like this the players will be tight early. Considering this is the 4th hand of the event...and considering the action...if hero shoves he will have the nuts. Absolutely end of. This is why shoving is bad. The embarassment of everyone clapping as the guy plods towards the carpark after just 4 hands is enough for players to fear stacking off light. The guy himself shows this scared mentality.......hero shoved, happy for that to be the end of the hand when the SB folded. If he does happen to get called that will be just luck rather than judgement. Playing bad by shoving just in case some of the other players MAY play bad and call is still playing bad whichever way you look at it.

OK - after this I forget the whole thing

oppo had 68

yes
8 high

my issue was that this was taking place at an APAT event that was oversubscribed and I just wondered, "what the hell was he thinking when he called?"


of course he hit the 9 on the turn

oh and would my man shove in similar circumstances in the future? Hell No!

my issue was that this was taking place at an APAT event that was oversubscribed and I just wondered, "what the hell was he thinking when he called?"

This is the perfect answer to the question...why is shoving is bad? Cos a call is gonna be pretty inexplicable.

Why?

Is it in case someone who is way behind might call and get lucky?

This is more poor thinking from your friend. He wants the call especially from 6 8. Maybe not the set because he's only 70 30 favourite and I can maybe understand not wanting to get knocked out but even then if the cards are face up he should be happy to get the lot in.

If his reason for not shoving in future is because he realises now that he's wasting value then it's fine.

If it's because he got unlucky then he needs to read through this thread and have a serious think. These bad beats are going to happen when a donk calls but long term it's exactly what he wants.

He needs to take this horrible hand in his stride and improve from it.