blonde poker forum

A hand is dealt at an 8-handed table and we begin the preflop action. A couple of calls, a couple of folds, and we get around to the big blind who is given his option. The UTG player then mentions that he has not acted yet - UTG+1 must have folded out of turn, the dealer hasn't noticed, and action has continued.

What do we do here?

No grey area here, UTG hand is dead

How did he not notice action having gone all around the table?

Exactly. Hence his hand being dead

I agree with it passing round the whole table his hand being dead but what happens if one or two players pass and he pipes up? Or three or four etc?

Where do you draw the line at his hand being dead? When is it the players' lack of attention or his own fault and how does this affect the rule?

Right i would like to throw in a few more factors of this hand as it played.......

The hand had been dealt and the UTG player was being asked for his odd 50 chips by another player and whilst this was happening UTG+1 must of acted out of turn which was followed by the other players. It wasnt until the dealer asked the BB for his option that UTG spoke up and said he hadnt had chance to act. No player had raised and it was a limped pot.......

So with these facts what should our ruling be now??

Hand still dead - how can he not notice six players acting ahead of him?

no difference whatsoever if 2 or more players act after him it is "substantial action" and his hand is dead.

To be fair this player was a newbie and could tell he was new to the casino! Also i think this is part dealer error as he had not been told it was his turn to act and the dealer just took the action as it was.

i believe the ruling is to riase your concerns within a "reasonable time" (which i believe is 2 people behind). So pre flop - if it gets 2 people to your left when you mention it - then you are fine - whereas if all the action has taken place round to the BB - im pretty sure the whole table is allowed to slap you (in a home game it should be a 5bb penalty into the pot) - oh yes - and your hand is dead  ;)

Easiest Ruling ever, under all circumstances.

The hand is as dead as a very dead thing.

He'll pay more attention next time.

When is it deemed 'dead'. Does a rule say 1/2/ players?

Anything written anywhere?

With newbies, you can be less strict about some things. String betting is one - the first time they do it you can let it stand and just explain what they should do instead, as it doesn't really impact upon the other players.

But letting him play now will affect the other players. If he limps along, he may hit a hand that beats them. If he wants to raise, what do you do? You've got to kill his hand.

Also, it's not the dealer's job to tell players what to do - paying attention is part of the game.

I had a simliar thing happen to me at, I think, APAT Walsall.  It was post flop, and I was first to act.  I'd flopped two pair, but the board was scary with straight and flush draw possibilities.  Whilst considering how much to bet the next guy to act checked out of turn and the next player to act very quickly checked behind.  I quickly made the point that I had still not acted, but the dealer apparently didn't hear me (despite me being sat in seat one!) and turned to the next player to act at the other end of the table.  I protested again, loudly this time, and the dealer said that I had tapped the table when he had invited me to act, and he then just carried on inviting action at the other end of the table.  I know for a fact I hadn't made any indication of checking (this was backed up by other players, but ignored), and the dealer had not even looked at me after dealing the flop.  I think that was what annoyed me most - the dealer just not wanting to admit that he had made a mistake or seek a ruling and carrying on regardless. 

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that, given the right set of circumstances, play can very quicklly move right around the table before you've had a chance to make your protest, but I agree it's rare. 

Obv CF was dealing and should of been paying more attention!!


Yep specially if he is holding Cowboys!!

Ok, me and girgy were both on this table, and I was dealing (not that that really makes any difference). My first instinct was that the hand was dead. Girgy and some others thought the hand is live, but he can only call, not raise. We got the card room supervisor over and a typical "grosvenor ruling" was made that he could call. So he did. The big blind went all in, UTG player called and had his KK busted by the BBs AJ.

I was pretty sure I was right on this one so RRs to the rescue:

12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act.

So, the magic number of 3 players. I note the rule says MAY lose the right to act, but I think this decision is pretty clear cut - you simply cannot fail to notice the entire table act on a hand out of turn and expect to keep your hand. Scope for all sorts of angle shoots here, esp given what he was holding! (though i don't think he was trying to pull an angle, think it was simply a case of being new to the game)

Like you say all aspects point to he was new to the game so really didnt know the procedures. Also i would of agreed his hand was dead if there had been a raise before he spoke up.

again grosvenor makes the wrong ruling when there own rulings are that if 3 people have made action than the players hand is dead

Grosvenor rules state that if three or more people have acted then the hand is dead. Why these card room supervisors in provincial casinos cant even grasp the basic company rules is beyond me.

Does passing count as action?

What I mean is if someone acts out of turn behind you then 2 more instamuck before you get a chance to say anything would the hand be dead?

Obviously if there's betting action then you really should have time to notice and say something but if people are passing it can happen very fast.

passing is not counted as an action. Only betting or raising constitutes as an action

Not technically right #1 say it was 5 handed and it is (you) UTG to act and you have a marginal hand  4 and 5 pass so you are now left against the blinds, has/will this have changed your decision?

yes it is.

of course passing is an action

i should really have read the posts before i replied. I was refering to out of turn betting and whether folding counts as action that re-opens new options...but nvm
According to Robert's rules, its 2 players and the cards are dead. Obvious the dealer needs to have basic common sense and not kill player's hands if the out of turn folding happened too quick and the player was not buying time to gain any sort of advantage.

Well said!!

Although technically if the hands are folded out of turn quickly, action has taken place, this should be at the dealers discretion IMO, I had an incident whereby someone folded out of turn (seat 9), I have immediately brought this to the players attention, yet a mexican wave of folding happened behind me whilst I am waiting for player to  act. I never killed his hand as he had done nothing wrong and acted quite quick (not taking advantage etc)

no dealers dont have the discretion, thats what td's are for it takes the onius from the deale, they do what they are told and nothing else.

Sorry, I used the word discretion instead of common sense