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Title: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 03:09:44 AM palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday .....
blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...willie tann raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at 6s 7s and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought willie tann passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ? Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 28, 2009, 04:05:35 AM palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday ..... blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at 6s 7s and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ? If you are expecting a pass from both the flat callers here you are on a different planet! Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 04:29:27 AM i take it u very rarely play at luotn then james ?????.................anyway so could u tell me why u thinkim on another planet if i think they are passin plz
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 28, 2009, 05:13:12 AM i take it u very rarely play at luotn then james ?????.................anyway so could u tell me why u thinkim on another palnet if i think they are passin plz They have called a raise so we can assume the hand is 'decent' in their eyes, now they are getting 2-1 to a call a squeeze with the same 'decent' hand. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 05:22:43 AM ok so could u pls tell me the range of hands u expect or think they could have here....oh and i now know they have 2-1 on there money so aswell wot would u expect there calling range to ba after my push?
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 28, 2009, 05:29:43 AM ok so could u pls tell me the range of hands u expect or think they could have here....oh and i now know they have 2-1 on there money so aswell wot would u expect there calling range to ba after my push? It's live poker so i just assume they are bad, their range for calling is 95% of the hands they called the initial raise with. I have no idea what their original calling range would be. I am guessing from your post its 400-800, it would be handy to know what their stacks were before trying to attribute ranges. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 05:37:02 AM the guy who called had about 14k-18k left after callin the 2300........is there anythin else u need to know ?
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on April 28, 2009, 05:50:25 AM this bet is never getting through anywhere.
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 05:56:27 AM could u give me ur thoughts on why u think this pls action man???????/
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on April 28, 2009, 06:08:09 AM youre just laying the callers far too big a price to call. They obv have some sort of hand to call willie's raise, and your giving them 2/1 if u had 20k i like the play.
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 06:13:08 AM ok thanks for ur opinion...so saying some sort of hand wot range would u be puttin him on plz?
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on April 28, 2009, 06:14:34 AM his calling range is whatever he called with preflop.if he decided to call 22 then thats what he will call u with 67s A7 etc....
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 06:17:49 AM obviously but i was hoping ppl would try put themselfs in my position and give me a range that they think he would of called the original raise from willie tann....
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 28, 2009, 06:42:04 AM obviously but i was hoping ppl would try put themselfs in my position and give me a range that they think he would of called the original raise from Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450).... Give us stack sizes like i said and we might be able to help you... Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: nirvana on April 28, 2009, 06:52:27 AM Any small pair, any ace, TJ and above is the right answer
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 07:13:25 AM willie tann had 30k-40k......player in cut off had 20k and not sure of the player on the buttons stack...does this help
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: jakally on April 28, 2009, 08:36:29 AM ok thanks for ur opinion...so saying some sort of hand wot range would u be puttin him on plz? Better question is, what is the percentage chance of getting it through. Given the odds you are giving them, unless they put you on a premium only, then they are correct to call 100% of the time. You have just about enough to get one player to fold, but not to get it through 3 of them. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: MANTIS01 on April 28, 2009, 09:41:52 AM palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday ..... blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at 6s 7s and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ? Buddy. You have just moved to a new table. After 2 hands a player raises and you insta-decide he is raising your bb light. You believe you know what the raiser's range is and what he thinks you are thinking having sat down like 2 secs ago. From this insta-information you decide to shove before the other 2 actually call. When they do call you say you definitely expect them to pass as well when you shove. Why do you expect that? They could both be calling stations. You don't know. In reality you are making a lot of assumptions when you're actually completely in the dark with regard to the potential success of this move. Next time i'd take a bit of time to assess your oppos before you steam in with an atc squeeze thinking you know what gwon at this new table. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: LeedsRhodesy on April 28, 2009, 10:03:20 AM palyin a live £100 fo at the g luton on sunday ..... blinds are 400/800 and i have just moved to a new table 27 players left with average stack of around 17k.....2nd hand and im in the big blind i have about 13k...Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) raises my big blind and im thinkin he is raising light i havent looked at my cards yet but ive made my mind up that he is raisin light and expects me to fold because he will think i know he is a good player...so im shovin any 2 here for defo.......right he is in the hi jack and the cut off and button flat call the 2300 the small blind passes...so there is 7750 in the middle now and with my 1500 it now makes it 9250...........so i look down at 6s 7s and shove for a extra 10k...........as i thought Willie (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) Tann (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=450) passes and i expect the other 2 to pass as i dont think they have a good enough hand to call 10k as i think they would have re raised willies raise.....anyway the player in the cutoff calls after about 45seconds of thinkin and the button passes......now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with....................i will tell u wot he called with after some replies......i was definatly expectin them to all pass and how often should thid of worked ? he calls with A10/99/88/AJ all hands i would flat call with to see a flop Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: MANTIS01 on April 28, 2009, 10:06:27 AM now wot range of hands do ppl put him on and wot range of hands do u think he could call with
So that said how can we (and you) come up with a calling range for a complete unknown? What you're asking really is what is the correct range of hands he can call with. But that's you assuming this guy is going to play correctly. And why would you think he is going to play correctly? So until we know better we must assume his calling range is 100% of hands he called the initial raise with. And actually, considering you don't have any kind of tight image to speak of his correct calling range is prob 100% of those hands anyway. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Simon Galloway on April 28, 2009, 10:07:16 AM As usual Mantis beats me to it. I will add a few things, seeing as I have played thousands of tournys at Luton, that might be relevant.
First up, amplifying Mantis' point about your pre-conceived squeeze. You made your mind up that you were happy to put your chips in light with Willie, but you didn't stop to think if having 2 extra callers in changed the hand dynamics at all. It now looks far more like a squeeze than it did heads up where you could have received more credit for playing your hand strength than the situation. Now let's take a look at what villain mioght have been thinking. Again, having had the misfortune to listen to many hand disections at the tables, these thoughts can and do take place. So trying to assign hand ranges and FPS is wasted when players (on here) make the mistake that villain will follow a similar thought process. They have already been labeled as bad, so DAI, and don't make plays based on what a HUD is suggesting - to me that is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. Villain could be thinking: a) I didn't come out tonight to pass. b) I have work in the morning, let's gamble, early bed or final table ftw. c) here's a spite call. You raised my blind last week. d) I was gonna pass, but now everyone else has passed, I can't let him have it. e) It is 100% a squeeze. He can never ever have a genuine hand here. f) I know I'm behind but...# g) I have put "some" chips in the pot, therefore I am committed. h) I have him covered so I am still "in" if I lose this. I could carry on. This isn't me bashing the Luton players ~ there are good and bad players in every domain. I am just saying that to find the best play you have to look at the hand from their POV. Sometimes a situation is crying out for a play. But if you know that 100% the donk can't pass then it makes it a bad play to execute. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: daviebhoy on April 28, 2009, 11:46:33 AM Any small pair, any ace, TJ and above is the right answer +1 Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: LeedsRhodesy on April 28, 2009, 12:08:58 PM As usual Mantis beats me to it. I will add a few things, seeing as I have played thousands of tournys at Luton, that might be relevant. First up, amplifying Mantis' point about your pre-conceived squeeze. You made your mind up that you were happy to put your chips in light with Willie, but you didn't stop to think if having 2 extra callers in changed the hand dynamics at all. It now looks far more like a squeeze than it did heads up where you could have received more credit for playing your hand strength than the situation. Now let's take a look at what villain mioght have been thinking. Again, having had the misfortune to listen to many hand disections at the tables, these thoughts can and do take place. So trying to assign hand ranges and FPS is wasted when players (on here) make the mistake that villain will follow a similar thought process. They have already been labeled as bad, so DAI, and don't make plays based on what a HUD is suggesting - to me that is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. Villain could be thinking: a) I didn't come out tonight to pass. b) I have work in the morning, let's gamble, early bed or final table ftw. c) here's a spite call. You raised my blind last week. d) I was gonna pass, but now everyone else has passed, I can't let him have it. e) It is 100% a squeeze. He can never ever have a genuine hand here. f) I know I'm behind but...# g) I have put "some" chips in the pot, therefore I am committed. h) I have him covered so I am still "in" if I lose this. I could carry on. This isn't me bashing the Luton players ~ there are good and bad players in every domain. I am just saying that to find the best play you have to look at the hand from their POV. Sometimes a situation is crying out for a play. But if you know that 100% the donk can't pass then it makes it a bad play to execute. hahahaha love it!!!! Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: outragous76 on April 28, 2009, 12:50:58 PM Given what SG has said, and typical type of play i would have him on............
66-TT AJ-AK + ATs all suited connectors 78-kq Basically you can determine from the above that he prob has a very wide range for you to merrily shove any flop (which I presume is you intention) I would only shove 1. A board which connects nicely with your hand (any 2 spades, top pair open ended, 2 pair etc) 2. a rainbow single broadway card board (like 2 6 Q) and hope he didnt have the Q 3. Any A on board is bad as it falls too much into his range so this has you folding even if he checks to you Your options here are limited - pray for the miracle flop If you want me to guess his hand - i would plump for the middle of his range - so 99 or KQ suited Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: LeedsRhodesy on April 28, 2009, 01:23:03 PM when is he going to tell us this hand??? Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: noble1 on April 28, 2009, 04:20:50 PM i think by now after all the replies , you know you made a questionable play .. most opponents know if they offered 2to1 pot odds that there calling range can be quite wide..You ask what his hand could be and as replied so far it could be anything ;D
What is correct to call even if villain puts you on a range like 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo then he'd be ok calling with 66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo to be ''mathematically correct'' if as simon says in points A to H then i would not be surprised to see an even wider range... If i was going to steal like in your situation then my broad ish rule is that my stack size is at least 7x the size of the raise so against 1 opponent [willie] then even i'd be wary of trying to steal with 13k and with the 2 extra callers i would not attempt it... Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: GreekStein on April 28, 2009, 04:53:53 PM if u had 20k i like the play. Basically this^^ It all comes down to stack size but at the moment someone is likely to look you up. Your play looks like a squeeze too so you really need to be giving them a worse price so they can't call. Your thinking is good though. Willie is bound to be opening a ton of pots and we don't think cutoff or button are flatting with anything good enough to snap us off in but it's harder to 3-bet now that there's a lot more money in the pot and you will get looked up wider. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 05:20:51 PM thanks for all the replys guys..................he actually called with kt suited which i was pretty amazed with tbh.........i didnt mind the call as the pot was now for 30k.......after the hand i really felt that if i had 20-25k the player still would have called....anyways the flop came 7 8 t....cant remember the turn and another 8 on the river...he obviously felt that i knew willie was raisin light....
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: nirvana on April 28, 2009, 06:01:34 PM I think I answered most accurately and most succinctly. That is all :-)
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 06:18:20 PM i still think kt is light here tho.....dont u ?
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: nirvana on April 28, 2009, 06:27:47 PM It is light but I think everyone else has explained much better than I could why the call could easily be made with a hand like that.
Willie definitely raises light a fair bit but can lay down to a re-raise if he thinks he's behind. The people flatting behind are likely doing it with hands that can develop a bit so not complete rubbish, but unlikely to be monsters, given the way play typically goes there. For some of the reasons Simon mentioned a lot of people just won't lay down to your raise, also, as others point out, the maths prob makes a call almost compulsory. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 28, 2009, 06:53:08 PM thanks for all the replys guys..................he actually called with kt suited which i was pretty amazed with tbh.........i didnt mind the call as the pot was now for 30k.......after the hand i really felt that if i had 20-25k the player still would have called....anyways the flop came 7 8 t....cant remember the turn and another 8 on the river...he obviously felt that i knew willie was raisin light.... You sure have read this thread. I think if you are 'amazed' by this call then you should deffo do some more reading up about how hands perfom pre flop. You also should mind the call, its not a good idea to get it in behind. You think he calls with KT for 25k so you try to bluff him for 13k? The only thing i am amazed by is the time he took to call. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 28, 2009, 07:00:15 PM i stayed around for a bit and watched him play and then realised how bad he really was....im not sayin at the time of the move i thought he would call 20k -25k it was afterwards when i was discussing it with some players from the same table at a break......also my hand is not very far behind him in this situation is it ?
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Pelham Boy on April 28, 2009, 07:42:33 PM I was sitting next to Jason during this hand, personally i didn't mind his squeeze, and knowing the sort of player he is wasn't surprised to see his his hand.
The villain certainly didn't make a maths based call, he said afterwards he called because he could tell Jason was 'pooping himself'. As i was sitting next to him and not looking at him i have no idea if this was true, but i have seen Jason make plenty of moves without his expression or body language changing. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: AlexMartin on April 29, 2009, 03:44:48 AM i dont mind it, live plays a lot shallower and they still think a squeeze is a big hand. as said i prefer if you have 15/20k
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on April 29, 2009, 02:52:06 PM KT! id dislocate my shoulder calling.
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on April 29, 2009, 02:54:34 PM I was sitting next to Jason during this hand, personally i didn't mind his squeeze, and knowing the sort of player he is wasn't surprised to see his his hand. The villain certainly didn't make a maths based call, he said afterwards he called because he could tell Jason was 'pooping himself'. As i was sitting next to him and not looking at him i have no idea if this was true, but i have seen Jason make plenty of moves without his expression or body language changing. this makes the shove at least twice as bad. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: noble1 on April 29, 2009, 06:26:23 PM nothing to add but std call..but a couple of nuggets of wisdom imo have been written that you should consider $muszlesz$
if you want to improve your mtt strategy.. I think if you are 'amazed' by this call then you should deffo do some more reading up about how hands perfom pre flop. You also should mind the call, its not a good idea to get it in behind. http://www.pokercalculatoronline.com/ have a tinker with this link.......... :) i will add 3 things that i think good mtt players think about which i think you forgot about in this situation - What does my opponent have? What does my opponent think I have? What does my opponent think I think he has? Manipulating the answers to the second question is a good step in improving imo as well as knowing what level are your opponents are thinking at so that you can adjust... Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: AndrewT on April 29, 2009, 07:15:22 PM i will add 3 things that i think good mtt players think about which i think you forgot about in this situation - What does my opponent have? What does my opponent think I have? What does my opponent think I think he has? For most live players you only have to consider the first. For just about none do you need to consider the last. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on April 29, 2009, 10:12:22 PM seems like most of the ppl that reply here just berate the play or the player imo.....thanks to those who have replyed tho always good to hear the views of others
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: EvilPie on April 30, 2009, 12:44:50 PM seems like most of the ppl that reply here just berate the play or the player imo.....thanks to those who have replyed tho always good to hear the views of others It's called tough love mate. Don't take it to heart. Just make sure you take on board what everyone's saying because most of it makes sense. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: Royal Flush on April 30, 2009, 05:03:56 PM Don't take it to heart. Just make sure you take on board what everyone's saying because most of it makes sense. I don't think the OP will take anything on board, the post was just a place to whine, there is no intention of self improvement. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: MANTIS01 on April 30, 2009, 06:14:41 PM Don't take it to heart. Just make sure you take on board what everyone's saying because most of it makes sense. I don't think the OP will take anything on board, the post was just a place to whine, there is no intention of self improvement. This is the feeling I got from the thread as well. I mean $muszlesz$, I said the move was no good because you had just moved tables and so you were playing it blind. You agree because you say "i stayed around for a bit and watched him play and then realised how bad he really was....im not sayin at the time of the move i thought he would call 20k -25k, it was afterwards ". So this guy makes bad calls. You didn't know that when you pushed all-in. You did a bit later. That's how you cocked the hand up in a nutshell. But you keep asking whether it's a bad call by him...i still think kt is light here tho.....dont u ?. The responses you get to that question are totally irrelevant. You want people to say he's the bad player and that's why you lost. But not knowing he was a bad player and trying to squeeze him blind for your tournament with scant chips is bad play by you buddy. Appreciating that point makes the k-10 is light debate redundant. I'm not berating you at all, I'm just telling you how it is. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: $muszlesz$ on May 01, 2009, 04:38:35 AM i do take on board wot ppl are sayin and the only ppl who are berating the play are u flushy who is rich and doesnt mind wot ppl say back and a player who u stake...so in all honesty i feel like u just want to berate the the players who dont play the high level poker u do and also dont have the money to
Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: doubleup on May 01, 2009, 07:53:50 AM i do take on board wot ppl are sayin and the only ppl who are berating the play are u flushy who is rich and doesnt mind wot ppl say back and a player who u stake...so in all honesty i feel like u just want to berate the the players who dont play the high level poker u do and also dont have the money to I think he berates everyone Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: action man on May 01, 2009, 09:04:08 AM i do take on board wot ppl are sayin and the only ppl who are berating the play are u flushy who is rich and doesnt mind wot ppl say back and a player who u stake...so in all honesty i feel like u just want to berate the the players who dont play the high level poker u do and also dont have the money to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: GreekStein on May 01, 2009, 09:43:35 AM i do take on board wot ppl are sayin and the only ppl who are berating the play are u flushy who is rich and doesnt mind wot ppl say back and a player who u stake...so in all honesty i feel like u just want to berate the the players who dont play the high level poker u do and also dont have the money to I got berated by him once when I first joined blonde and I thought wtf who the fck is this guy? However, every time I post on the hand analysis board I tend to get a honest critique of the hands I play and Flushy's responses are normally bang on. I've improved my game a lot thanks to blonde and this board in particular. There are a lot of people who wait for Flushy/Alex Martin etc to post something and then post 'this' or write exactly what they've said in a different way. Other people will post their analysis in a way that they could phrase a lot better as it seems like the OP is often being berated. The crux of it is that we are pretty lucky to have some really excellent players on blonde who post on the hand analysis board (which is such a fantastic resource) - whilst some of them could phrase stuff differently it's important to be thick skinned and soak up what they are saying. I've certainly reaped the benefits. In this instance I actually have to agree with Flushy. I'm neither staked by him or a high stakes player. I haven't even met him. However, you posted a couple of good hands for analysis recently (the omaha hand where u had AAKx was one that comes to mind) and received some pretty good feedback but appeared to fight and argue both times that what you did was exactly right when you should have been taking on board what was being said. I think Flushy isn't alone in thinking you used the thread as a place to whine without the greater emphasis on self improvement. Hopefully you can see this too and keep using this board. Good luck at the tables. Title: Re: should this of worked? Post by: paulhouk03 on May 01, 2009, 11:33:49 AM i dont think you should squeeze here as u dont have much of a stack to push ppl off.
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