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It’s my play on the river that I would like some opinions on please folks.

Live £20 freeze out at Circus Casino Stoke - it’s called a 'deepstack' but really it’s a mid-stack, with 6000 chips and 20 minute levels with a couple of levels removed.

Anyway this is at the 50-100 level and we are nine handed. I haven’t been involved much yet but neither have the two villains in this piece.

I am in the small blind with    Ac    4c
I have 5700 chips. I don’t have much of an image yet. I am not a regular at Stoke by any means.

There are five limpers and the BB hasn’t woken up yet so it seems ok to call from the SB.

Flop is  5c    6c    2c

Happy days, I’ve flopped the nuts. I check.

Player A bets 300 and is called by player B in mid position. Folded to me and I flat call. I know player A to be decent, I have played with him before at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/). I know nothing about player B.

Turn is     9c

Bugger, now the nuts isn’t looking likely to get paid as much, and actually it isn’t the nuts any more. The low straight flush is impossible as I have the 4 of clubs but 7,8 of clubs has just got there.

I check, player A bets 700

Called by player B and I flat once more intending to lead on the river if the board doesn‘t pair. I did think about raising here but felt the nut flush was just too obvious and that I was only getting called by the real nuts. I want my opponents to think maybe their King or Queen high flush is good and if one of them is trying to boat up (player B perhaps) I’ve decided for better or worse that I’ll give them a chance to get there.

Yes, maybe I should have raised here but I didn’t. The river is   Ts

Now I lead out for 1200. Player A re-raises to 2500 and amazingly player B calls.

What now please?

I will let you know later what I did and why and the critique of my decision.

I think this is the clearest flat call I've ever seen.

No point raising now that the house has made it because they're not passing.

Fold is possible but it's too cheap for too big a pot.

You're probably behind 60% of the time here but you can't pass.

Why do you lead out on the end when the card that has come along is a scare card?

I prefer the c/c here which would possibly give you a way out if A bets and B raises. At this stage you've only got 1k of your initial stack in the middle so a pass would be possible if A bets 1200 and B raises to 2.5k.

As played there is just too much in the middle to pass even though you are probably behind.

Buggeration. I just put  2s in as a blank without really paying attention. That 2 actually pairs the board. I can't remember the exact river card but I do remember thinking at the time that it didn't pair the board...sorry!!!

Anyway, assume the river was  Ts  and I think your answer is still correct...

I have modified it now so don't give EvilPie any grief - the original post from my muppet-self did say the river card was  2s. Which it wasn't.

Think it depends if you think either of them having the Kc Qc will pay you off, if they appear half decent then its probably a flat call.

I think your ahead here but neither player should be paying you off on this board.

I dont think I would ever put either player directly on  7c 8c enough to fold

If they have it GG NH WP

We also have to give evilpie grief, he thinks were behind on 60% of the time with the ace flush on a unpaired board. What a nit.  ;D

If the river card doesnt pair the board this is an all in!

If you are loosing to a perfect hand it is just a cooler - I am never folding to a 2 card perfect holding when i have 2nd nuts - EVER! Just not profitable in the long run

You could easily get a lose call from  Kc with the value in the pot.

I guess you are going to tell us that the min raise is the uber nuts so you flat call and lose?

raise 2,000

if they fold just show the  4c and smile enigmatically?

if they jam, fold showing the  Ac?

Unlucky if you had run into the  7c 8c, but what can you do...

 ;all-in;

Is this a level?

fold

Ok, what I did was thus:

My thinking was quite clear on the river. I knew I had the second nuts. But I also knew that with a four flush on board and two opponents in the hand, that the re-raiser must know for almost certain that I am holding the  Ac, or if not me then the other guy. He also knows that a full house is not possible and so his min re-raise suggests the nuts or maybe an unlikely probe bet to see if I really did have the Ace.

I know he doesn't have the lower straight flush - so his range is either  7c 8c for the nuts, a random flush that he knows can't be the nuts, maybe a set or straight but extremely unlikely (like 0.01%) and he is never, ever bluffing. He is known to be decent so I can't see him holding anything other than  7c 8c here.

Yet despite this thinking, I also thought something else. I have been running horrifically bad, I mean getting coolered left right and centre. I am a winning player whose results recently have been so poor that I have lost confidence. I said to myself, "..yes he probably has the exact hand I fear he has but if I always fold in this spot I'll never get my game back. I'll just always be afraid to sleep in the dark otherwise. Bollox to it, it's only a £20 donkfest anyway. If I've been coolered yet again I'm going down in flames. I'm all-in"

Player A took a while and called with a sigh in his voice. I knew then that he had  7c 8c. Player B passed and I got to see the bad news. To be fair to player A, he said to me straight away, "..sorry mate, I wasn't slow rolling, I needed to try and get a call from the other guy."

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

Jut thought it was an interesting spot. And I would love to know the odds of two players flopping a flush and then one of them turning a straight flush.

slowrolling w@~:er IMO!  - would have told him so too!

What on earth does he think the other guy is going to call with  - with all the preceeding action!

As for the remainder - never folding to 2 perfect cards - your play was fine - you could have flatted if you like

lead the flop

Come on- this is ridic. You can't fold here.

Sometimes in poker you get what's called a cold deck. Shit happens!!!

lol @ 'deepstack'

Lead the flop,get it in on the turn. Just unlucky.

too much thought, get the chips in

I think this is one of those situations where we look back later and realise it could only be 2 particular cards

I agree with this up to a point. Yes, shit happens, but if you can see it coming then why go ahead and invite it in anyway? I think this hand illustrates this perfectly. His range is so squeakingly narrow that me shoving is nothing more than a defiant finger to the poker gods. Still, I enjoyed the moment, lol.

I'm also being accused of too much thinking. Since when has that been a bad thing for a poker player?

I don't intend to make a habit of folding the second nuts, but I want someone, one day, somewhere in the poker universe, to agree with me that it is possible to either fold (maybe not) or just call in the spot I described.

right up to the moment when you have played a few of these and villain shows up a few times without any clubs in their hand at all.  Then it dawns that folding the ace flush aint gonna happen.  Ever.

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

If you are genuinely interested in coming out of your bad patch Psyo read this part of your second post and realise how ridiculous it sounds. It's not the attitude of some hard-ass poker player is it? It's a pretty weak and pathetic attitude. You feel the need to reassure us your post isn't a level and you speculate about the fantastical odds of flopping nut flush vs straight flush. Why? Well I'll tell you that them odds are too big to even consider. So why are you considering them? It's because you've had a few coolers and it's gettin inside your head a bit. You are in a £20 tournament playing people you know little about, so the odds they are actually crazy are better than this cooler happening. The weight you're putting on the cooler is your problem my friend...you're not "reading it" like you say...you're just fretting about it too much. Please don't aspire to limp on in a tournament with a few chips because you flatted a bet scared of the straight flush. Pull yourself together man. Remember!! You've been running horifically bad. This attitude is why.

In fact why are people constantly putting up these coolers on PHA and making me read "we should play cautious cos you never know" type comments. It's making me feel sick. C'mon guys, we're supposed to be hard-ass aren't we?? Jesus.

That's my point (badly made) really Simon, we rationalise it after the event - at the time when we're playing we're never really thinking a fold is an option (as some of the posts suggest) or seriously trying to put the guy on those 2 cards - you can't actually do it hence the OP shoves. Its just a 50p thing rather than a hand analysis is kinda what I'm geting at

I should of said something along the lines that it's only later that we decide that all the clues existed to precisely put someone on exactly 2 cards

Mantis, thanks for the comments. Yes, my head has gone somewhat because the crazy shit I described keeps happening. I suppose part of the reason for posting was as a kind of cathartic release from the stupidity of it all.

You say I am running bad because of my attitude. I don't know how I feel about this. I agree that my attitude is fucked because I've been running bad but can it be the other way round? This hand would still have happened even if I was running well, it's just that my reaction to it would have been different.

As for being hard ass, well yes that is what we poker players normally are, but even with a titanium ass on Tuesday night I knew he had the straight flush and over that I'm not bullshitting. Nirvana has suggested that my post was a 50p post and that I could only say that I knew he had those exact two cards after the event. Well, half the point of my post was that I did realise it was a possibility, did realise it was highly likely, didn't say so at the table because I didn't need to, and then because of my mindset, shoved anyway, as most have said I should have done.

I am now going to take a little break from the game and start firming up my ass.

Fair play. Listen, I'm not saying that an attitude can prevent a specific hand from happening, but it will definitely affect your performance overall. You said that in cash you would jam this nut flush hand hard. Why? Because you want to maximise your value. In a tournament you want to maximise your value too!! But if a weak attitude is going to prevent you from maximising the value because you're scared of a cooler and going out then you wont be playing the tournament to the best of your abilities. You will be missing value and acquiring less chips than you should and that will have a knock on effect throughout the event.

There is of course a debate to be had with regard to sacrificing value to maintain your tournament life in some situations but my point is that we can't have that debate when we're holding the 2nd nuts on the river and we're only behind to a straight flush. Both this hand and Tighty's kings full hand are the same. We have the 2nd nuts come the river and we're fretting about silly stuff. If we just pledge to find ways to get our chips in any time we have the 2nd nuts and we can only be losing to a straight flush, a royal flush or quads we will be making money and maximising our value, end of. If we accept this as our standard goal with the 2nd nuts we can't know our oppo has the nuts cos it doesn't even matter to us...cos we're never folding. We can fear that's how bad we are running right now, but that's just our brain fecking with us...ignore it...become hard-ass...simples.

I hope you realise I didn't mean to be rude when I mentioned the 50p thing. Just meant there isn't much to analyse in poker terms. You're opportunity for some catharsis and mantis' analysis of mindeset and attitudes is interesting all the same :-)

Wow,

Great post.

I need to read all of these and stop wasting my time playing (well not really). These posts give great POV and food for thought.  I as a dip shit would have them all in, i as i dip shit would have thought if he has the nutz i am ul. I probably would have been blinded by the A that i might not even have  considered the 78... but TBF i do suck.

Do we do this thought process on line all the time, coz we know lesser flushes would be in there plus bluffs plus a lot worse.  You guys must think quick to keep up with this thought process during a game and what about when you multi table.

Thanks for these posts i really think they are goner help my game.

Regards

Steve