blonde poker forum

Here's a tough one with aces - happy for a disection on any street, but particularly interested in the river.  Is it better to value shove and get called by some worse 2pr/set hands or turn it into a bluff catcher and check-call?  Or does anyone advocate a check-fold?

$20.00+$0.80 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/06/04 8:29:08 ET
Table '169120373 1' 10-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: swede1946 (1780 in chips)
Seat 2: DL1000 (1450 in chips)
Seat 3: Alm�i (1505 in chips)
Seat 4: sqwerty12 (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: 4ikaka (1575 in chips)
Seat 6: Nikolaisikus (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: BMan77 (1470 in chips)
Seat 8: marinus21 (1545 in chips)
Seat 9: M4ni4k (1385 in chips)
Seat 10: Hero (1350 in chips)
sqwerty12: posts small blind 15
4ikaka: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [As Ac]
Nikolaisikus: folds
BMan77: folds
marinus21: folds
M4ni4k: folds
Hero: raises 50 to 80
swede1946: calls 80
DL1000: folds
Alm�i: folds
sqwerty12: folds
4ikaka: folds
*** FLOP *** [6d Qc Jc]
Hero: bets 165
swede1946: calls 165
*** TURN *** [6d Qc Jc] [Ts]
Hero: bets 375
swede1946: calls 375
*** RIVER *** [6d Qc Jc Ts] [Ad]
Hero: checks
swede1946: bets 690
Hero: raises 40 to 730 and is all-in
swede1946: calls 40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
...........

Probably player dependant i.e. has the player got a k and been chasing till he hit.
I'm probably pushing the river rather than calling.
Probably raising more pre. If players are calling 80 then they'll probably call 120.

That ace on the end is a horrible card.

I can see oppo turning up with K 10 or a hand with 2 clubs containing the  Kc

I don't think you can c/f here. There's too much in the pot and you're leaving yourself a bit short at 730. It's a crying call though.

There's no point leading the river here with the 2nd nuts. You're rarely getting called by worse hands and only the K shoves on you meaning that you probably have to pass. Unfortunately by then you're so short that you have to call anyway just in case and lose.

Checking gives him the opportunity to bluff or possibly value bet worse hands than you so that you can snap them off.

Just out of curiosity what do you do here if the river is  2h and he shoves?

Agree on river, might as well check/call to let two pair hands bluff if he has the K so be it

Why not try and take it down on the turn? you bet 2/3 of the pot when its very draw heavy. Case for a shove there to win the 530 or so in the pot and move on?

Thanks for the replies, will see if I get any different views before expanding, but to answer this one, he couldn't shove as I was first to speak.  If he was first to speak in the hand, I'm sure the betting would unravel differently.  But to give you a straight answer to a straight question as asked, if he shoves the last 700 into me on a 2h river then I don't want to call, but probably do.

I don't think a fold on the end is that bad in this format. He still has over 20 BB, a single double up and he's average

I'm inclined to go with this in a don, c/f is looking ok

also as played why are you raising ai for the extra 40?
if you're winning it only puts about 1.5% on your stack and increases your chance of cashing by about zero, if you're losing however it guarantees that you're out as he calls 100% of the time. I would always keep the 40 back here, these games are so tight early on that I've quite often cashed from <50chips early on

Jam the turn. As played check fold the river.

As played B/f the river imo(around 350 mark).At this level there never going to come over the top without a king so it protects your hand against worse.Someone put they won't call with worse but i doubt anyones folding 2pr here with such a good price to call, don't really like the check calling alll our stack off here and check folding seems too weak.

This guy has called us with at least some interest in the flop. If he has a K in his hand added to his flopped pair/fd surely he jams the turn over the 375 bet. Really don't think he peels the turn with a good pair/draw combo hand so as to make the pot 1,300 and leave himself 700 behind. What?? I reckon the 10 prob made his hand to smooth call the turn. But anyway he surely doesn't mini-spaz 700 with a missed f/d on the river when he passed-up better spazzing opportunities. Pushing is ok for me as I would expect to be called.

This was a small AHK error :(

50p in the tin, but this one was fun to lose.... does make assigning hands post flop tricky though... he shows up with A3

$20.80 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players

BB: 1,500 (50 bb)
UTG: 1,490 (49.7 bb)
UTG+1: 2,455 (81.8 bb)
MP1: 1,175 (39.2 bb)
MP2: 2,170 (72.3 bb)
MP3: 285 (9.5 bb)
CO: 1,885 (62.8 bb)
BTN: 990 (33 bb)
Hero (SB): 3,050 (101.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with Kh Kc
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls 30, 3 folds, CO calls 30, BTN folds, Hero raises to 210, 2 folds, CO calls 180

Flop: (480) Jd: 4s: 5c: (2 players)
Hero bets 390, CO calls 390

Turn: (1,260) 2c: (2 players)
Hero bets 1,290, CO calls 1,285 and is all-in

River: (3,830) 5d: (2 players, 1 is all-in)

I like value shoving this river and if i am checking, i actually prefer check/folding instead of check calling.

If we think about villians range, there is very little chance he doesn't have something here, only missed clubs. Given the pot size, how much we have back and our hand strength, i think folding is not the best option. We still have a lot of his range beat.

If we break down villians range:

King (and 98cc)- We go broke against this every which way, whether we check or shove. So shoving and check/calling have the same effect.

2pr and sets - I think random villians check these hands behind a lot, why would you turn them into a bluff? It is pretty obvious that we have some form of hand and are quite likely to be inclined to call a bet. Also in general ppl don't value bet light enough.

On the other hand villians rarely will lay these hands down getting 3 to 1, therefore shoving is vastly better than waiting for villian to make a light value bet or turning 2pr+ hands into a bluff.

Air- This is so little of villians range, that if he decides to turn missed small clubs into a bluff, gl to him.

If we're betting 350 then folding to a shove, we may as well ghey bet the river with 20, as no hand which doesnt have a K will raise...

You've got to be very careful about who you make this move against.

If oppo sees it as what it is, a stopper bet, then he may be inclined to jam worse hands knowing that you can't call.

Like you said, "who jams without the king?"

Forgot to finsih this one off for those that are results orientated :) tit villain shows up with KQ.

Thanks for replies, I also posted this elsewhere and although there was a wide variety of advice, the general line coming back was to bet a bit harder p/f and on the flop to make it a jam on the turn.

How many players playing $20 DON are capable of this level of thinking in your opinion ? I ain't saying it's perfect way to play the hand just in this spot at the river this is how i'd play it

This is a horrible hand to get at this stage in this format. You didnt want to raise to much and only pick up 45 pot. But you want 1 caller. I would have still raised more pre-flop (90-120) and if no call then dont kick yourself.

In my opinion this is the correct move on the river. Only a K is beating you and if he called your bet on the turn chasing then he's just a donk. Call hoping he has 2 pair or smaller trips