blonde poker forum

Just a quicky about attacking the big blind from the small blind when it folds around to you.

In last month's dtd deepstack at the 1500/3000 + 300 level.

The table's full so there's 7200 in the middle with my name on it. I'm fairly short on about 42k. Guy to my left is very similar stack.

There's 45 left, 27 paid and everyone seems to have slowed down so I'm trying to pick up a few of these 7.2k's.

For 3 orbits on the trot it has folded to me in the SB and I've shoved ATC picking up the blinds.

Obviously people have picked up on this and the BB has already said "I know what you're doing. You realise I'll get a hand at some point and have to call"

My question is; at what point if any do you stop this obvious atc shove?

Should we maybe let him off one round to possibly increase our FE for future rounds?

Or do we just relentlessly attack his blind every time it folds to us?

personally, without a hand once he has said that I give him a round off. Works wonders for FE next time when the pressure will be more intense.

keep shoving.  The fact is he still needs a big hand to call.  The fact he's giving it some 'speech' alters his calling range very little if at all.  Keep punishing him, these golden chance to pick up 20% to our stack just dont come around often enough to turn them down.


Having said that I dont shove literally ATC, but certainly most...

"I know what you're doing. You realise I'll get a hand at some point and have to call"

is another way of saying:

"Please stop it, because I can't do anything about it."

If he has decided he knows you're shoving atc at him and he's going to look you up light why would he tell you this?

Keep punishing him.

Having said that, I will occasionally pass such situations purely for the purposes of image, to let the table believe I have some standards wrt hand selection. In this case however you're a bit too short, take the 7.2k.

What would you think of passing?

Is there an argument for passing an ace with a very low kicker because if we get called we're likely to be crushed?

Do you prefer hands are almost definitely going to be live?

If i was BB i would tell you that i am callling your next shove with ATC.  gl Sir.

But would you?

Yeah I probably do the same mate.

Just tell him "I'm not even going to look then we're 50 50"

This is why I wonder if the occassional pass is good just to top up our FE. Obviously with a bit of luck this is also the one where he finds his hand.

This is probably one of the spots I find most tricky in tournaments but I guess that's just part and parcel of being OOP in any situation.

Wonder if any of the full time MTTers on here will have an opinion on occasionally limping the sb against a player like this and jabbing small or is this horrible? I guess it helps with your image too and will allow you to get a lot more through vs the rest of the table

yes

I woulda just said 'you shoulda done it last time mate, now it's gonna cost you more'.

Not shoving ATC and keeping on pressing is the same as shoving ATC and now trimming down the range a bit.

I don't mind a limp and stab against the right player.

I do think the whole sb on bb unexploitable shove thing gives way when the bb does indeed start exploiting you by adjusting his calling range.  Meanwhile, people are still pushing regardless because "its inexploitable innit"  well it might still be in a lot of situations but shoving a lot of chips with the worst chuff you have against a bb that is now calling you with 30% of his holdings loses a lot of appeal.

Just take into account that his range is getting wider every time you shove and adjust. In this situation this basically means chopping the bottom 20% out of our range this time round.

Any ace is going to unexploitable in this spot so you should always shove, of course shoving 72o is not going to unexploitable and if he opens up his range sufficiently our shove is not going to show a profit.

Going all-in EVERY round with a 42k stack is crazy. You've got to invest some thought into how this is going to pan out. Being all-in isn't putting yourself in a good place anyway, but to keep on doing it is kamikaze. It's immaterial whether each push can be deemed correct when considered in isolation because it's the culmative effect of each push that's important. There's no doubt that with each successive push the pressure on villain increases and thereby his calling range widens. So the weight you put on your card strength must increase when the likelihood your oppo will call increases. If you are shoving atc your oppo will auto-strat against that by widening his range, and emotionally the guy will widen his range faced with your barrage. You have used one weapon in your arsenal and it's worked, good, but time to try something new imo. You don't have to fold though, raise 8.2k instead...he will wonder why you've done that...and will fold after working it out.     

Obviously as said above his calling range should be widening with each push you make. But now that he's given you the warning that he's going to have to call at some point, I wonder whether his calling range for this next round might actually have tightened. He's complicated things a bit for himself by threatening to call, because he now knows for certain that you know that he "wants" to call. Therefore he thinks that your shoving range should have become tighter. After giving you the threat, he won't want to call you here with QJ and see you with A5, because he'll think that he'll look a bit of a tit when he loses.

So because of the threat I'd be tempted to shove this round again (and maybe give him his blind, or limp and stab, next round, when he's really going to snap...) If he hadn't actually said anything but seemed to be quietly boiling over, I'd let this one go.

Basically, I think when people say this it's because they want to get a walk, not because they want to call you. When they don't say anything, they're more likely to be quietly priming themselves to 'get the bastard next time'.

There does come a point though where if he ups his calling range by just a few percentage points then your profitable shoving range shrinks very rapidly. For example, if this was a SNG a few places from the bubble with 10bbs, you could probably shove 90% of hands if he only called 20%. But if he calls 25% then you can only shove 40%. (A lot of the hands that you lose from your shoving range wouldn't be big losers, but not much point making this play on this occasion unless you think it'll make a decent profit) Obviously don't know the ICM in this particular spot, but imagine it's similar, in principle at least. So if you think he'll snap call with A2 and KT, you suddenly need to be much more careful with what you shove.

If it helps at all, remeber that when you shove with 84s and get called by ATo it isn't gg immediately, you still have about 38% equity to scooooop a lovely pot

This is always my thinking in these spots.

When he finally found a hand it was AK and I had  6d 9d

I had 20 outs by the turn but missed.

I don't think I play it any differently against this particular oppo because the FE was huge.

Some very interesting points from everyone else regarding the widening range and speech that he made.

I saw his speech the same as mos. I thought it might actually narrow his range temporarily. Unfortunately it didn't narrow it beyond AK.

I did give him a pass at one point. I showed Q4 and he was delighted to be able to show 10 4. This definitely helped get a couple more through when he realised that I was capable of passing.

The metafold. :)

It's true that when you get called you can have 38% equity. However, I don't think this is something to aspire to really, especially if there's other strats to explore other than getting all your chips in as a certain underdog sometime soon.

It is not simple 38% is it, it is a crap load of fold equity that makes shoving so profitable. I kind of agree that looking at opening for a small raise is worth considering with this stack, very much opponent dependent which is more +ev.

Whats FE? Quite pleased with myself just fathomed ATC any two cards yes?

I think this crap load of fold equity reduces with each successive push though. So by the 4th successive shove the FE can't be as solid a consideration as that in the 1st shove. So it follows that you are flirting with this all-in @ 38% more and more if you persist with a tactic that's losing it's impact. And a good player wants to avoid that 38% if there's something else to try instead. That's why a small raise after 3 successive pushes is better, it's more cunning and can boggle your oppo into folding.

Also the under pressure villain threatening to call wont tighten his range imo cos when you make a statement of intent in front of 9 other people about the size of your balls it usually pressures you to follow through. So now he's calling with a decent hand where before he would need a very good one. If you employ this pushing tactic too often you always run into a hand and lose back what you took with interest. The merits of one push alone are very different to the merits of the 4th push on the bounce imo.

Tank pwns you all. wp sir, can we try and get this term mainstream by 2010 please.

It already is in my circle kid