blonde poker forum

Ok so asked by celtic to put this up as little bit interested in how it played out.

So we are going along quite well with around 54k and have been at a new table between 30mins-1hr table pretty tight one guy has around 80k stack and has been most aggro at the table but seems to be pretty decent.

Blinds 500/1000 ra100, we're in the BB with A2dd ep 80k stack guy opens to 2400 gets 4 callers sb folds

So 1st part is what's your play ?

Call :)

I think I'd limp here too.  With this many people in the hand, I'm looking to hit big though.

call is fine

Shove obv

3b to 5800, jam over a 4b.

You ain't knocking four off in one of these. Wouldn't normally but in a DS I limp too imo

minraise

The 3-bet is interesting here. I don't think you get 4bet very often.

Aggro player is OOP and has 4 people to act behind him, if he is opening a lot of pots in EP then this might get through. I'd prefer to make it 12.5-15k tho. I don't like the min raise at all. You are getting called by 5 players most of the time.

If other players are tight then the c-bet looks good on a lot of flops if we get this heads up. If aggro guy calls then we probably get this multi-way either stack someone or give up our hand quite easily.

Standard play is to call. But, the described table dynamics might suit making a move. Difficult to know without more information on how tight the other players are and how loose aggro guy is in EP. Then there is your image....

Disagree. Think this is one instance where a decent player is likely to 4 bet you real light. Looks like a great spot for you to be squeezing and he can't be worried about 4 flatters behind...it looks like theirs is just dead money in the pot.

Btw the minraise comment was a joke.

Other players haven't been that tight just hardly 3 betting,mostly limping,aggro guy hasn't been crazy just possibly 3 betting light a bit as has done so a few times without showdown.My own image is pretty tight.

I like Alex's line even more now to induce the 4-bet. If we put in a decent raise tho :

1. We don't have any problem jamming his 4-bet when that happens,
2. He folds and so do the other guys who don't call 3-bets
3. Someone calls and we can c-bet most flops when it gets heads up
4. We can check/raise all-in a lot of flops when it is multi-way or we may even hit our hand.

I take it that you like this plan with 72o as well?

call and see if some diamonds come

I wouldn't call to hit diamonds, but definitely to try and hit some deuces.

I wanna draw at the wheel personally

Are you one of those guys that loves watching car crashes?

Not really no. I don't think there is much chance that hand is ahead of his light 4-betting range.

dn

I have already said standard play is to call. There isn't much to discuss there. With a loose open-raiser in EP betting 2.5*BB and tight callers behind there is no reason to think Ace high isn't good here if we can get the tight players to fold and win their dead money. I don;t mind the play with good feel for where people are at on the table and with a tight image.

is it safe to say we're ready for your action and/or the flop now?

im not...i would fold and go for a smoke :)

hmmm as an ex-smoker I can advise that the cut-off is the hand to fold and go for a smoke, returning in time for your bb....

Nah, definitely call and see if diamonds come. If the flop comes  Ks 8s Ts insta open fold in the bb and go for a smoke. The dealer will still be shuffling the next hand when you return.

I thought it was best to let the discussion to 3 bet or peel run for a bit longer,i will put the next stage up tonight

I don't like a 3bet here, it looks soooooo much like a squeeze.

I do think you get 4bet light, and with so many players to get through, it's not a good spot I don't think.

Before I put the next stage up all put my thoughts so far

I do agree this could be a good spot to 3b as a lot of the time we do pick up the pot right here,However I really don’t like your bet size alex.If we make it 5700 here I’m pretty sure most of the time we end up just inflating the pot and it will still be multiway oop and how many players in a live tourney esp one in vegas :) are capable of 4b light ? I agree it’s a good idea to try to induce the 4b so we can 5b shove but I really don’t think that works here enough to warrant making that play and as someone else was making the point I would prefer to do it with 74green than A2.

Obviously flatting is the standard play to make here but I think its best line to take here and if we are 3b I think we should be making it between 8-9k

have we called yet?

Last time I played one of these, a 3bet from the BB would get you 4 callers.  You might get someone to pass, but I doubt it.  KQ aint going anywhere, QT aint going anywhere either. 66 is unpassable.  Wind your neck in and hit some diamonds on the flop.  Then when you want to re-jam the flop you can do, at least you will have some nut outs, because you are going to need to hit one of them to win the pot.

Next stage please

Call, needing to hit a huge flop OOP

[ ] This initial decision required this much analysis

lol

C'mon Stephen cough up sir!!!

Who is stephen?

Anyway I said to ray (or stephen as fido likes to call him) that I 3 bet pre here and he disagreed. Diff styles maybe? I dunno. Anyways, the next bit will be interesting imo.

lmao, I mistakenly thought Moksvich was the author of this thread  ;djinn;

Sorry mondatoo!

Are we still debating raising into 5 players without knowing their stack sizes or how they play when we're oop holding A-2?

Yup.

I'm calling a  Aspades 2s 3s flop, and we're gonna discuss whether we think our hand is good

Ahrt 2d Kh flop for me

we'll lead and get raised

I'm feeling lucky. gonna cr the  3c 4h 5s flop, call the 3bet shove and fade the button's house draw

Not a spot to 3bet call at all, peel please.

FFS people you no i have a drink problem i've just got in :)

OK so,i peeled and i think this is the best way to play it,flop comes AAK we are first to act obv what do you do ???

check call, check fold vs similar stacks generally

check/call

See whats with the rush no one cares :)

stack sizes please

AAK flop..suits please

AAK rainbow? ideal time to balance our open fold range imo

I agree check fold showing the Ace. Metagame 8th level thinking against the US players

Go all in, most of the time they can't call.

Ffs mondatoo has made a right arse of this. I knew the stack sizes from our msn convo. Can't remember exactly what they were so when he sobers up he can tell us. Flop was a a k 2 clubs iirc.

Ermmm,i'll think you'll find the stack sizes in op,unless i'm expected to give everyones stack ,fool

Yeah 2 clubs,i checked original raiser checks and old guy to his left who's typical old guy shoves for 10k,folds back around to us,now whats your play

flat obv.

do you not think that knowing the stack size of more than 1 oppo in a 6 way pot might make the analysis more worthwhile? I can't imagine why you're not getting any serious replies

afawk 4 of the 6 could be aipf. or they could all have 1 billion chip stacks

Yeah, I mean one typical old guy calls 2.4k leaving less than a pot-size bet behind. The LAG's who are 3-betting light to 5 bet jam pre really have their hands full imo.

Lets help with a bit better presentation. Not only is the information incomplete but its hard to work out what is going on

We have

Hero stack 54,000

blinds 500-1000/100

80,000 Villain opens to 2,400 "pretty decent"

4 callers

Hero in bb with  Ad 2d calls

flop  Ac Kc  Aspades or  Ahrt

Hero checks, the big stack orginial raiser checks. Presumably two more checks from the unkown stacked opponents

Old guy "typical old guy" whatever that means. Maybe he has false teeth. Shoves for 10,000


Mondatoo's question is what is your action now?

are we not on the reveal yet?

Still trying to find out the chip stacks for the other players in the pot.

stall for a bit and then nick the big denom chips off the old fella's stack when he nods off

I would call the typical old guy's bet

Sorry for not giving stack sizes of the 3 who folded as i dont remember none had me covered none where that short, as for "the typical old guy" i..e imo older players normally play quite tight,he called pre 2.4 then shoved 10 so his stack was 12.4k if my maths is correct

Sorry that updates have took a while but my laptop died on me on friday night wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii,so yesterdays and todays updates are done on a friends/dads computer

Come to Luton - the typical old guys will make your theory redundant :-))

What do i know, but at this point i would want the dead money so i r for me, i am a fish and at the level i play a shove is not out of the question. I guess that is wrong.

Looking forward to the next part to see if the butler did it  :)

ok up to speed, i do call old timers bet.

I'm still lost. we're getting about 2.5/1 to make the call and we've got an ace, another ace and another ace and a king I think so not folding. is it just one more player left in the hand other than tikay?

nomination for most butchered PHA thread of all time?

old guy had 12.5k imo

Fold, Tikay type is retired and probs has a boat

yeah I think that award is pretty much in the bag.

surely this just runs, call and dont even put your chips in, just wait to get half the pot?

made me lol. i think u used to have a leak doubleup :P

 all about timing and letting utg and utg+1 sail.

LOL @ you lot when my laptos fkd but woteva,why didn't anyone ask for stack sizes pre for the other players,i've said the old guy shoved for 10k thus his stack was 12.4k i also said everyone folded back around to me and yes only the original riaser is left.

I thought it was a pretty standard spot but celtic disagreed with every which way that i played the hand and thought it would be interesting to put up on here,so basically blame celtic imo  :)up

PS I called original raiser shoved (who i said in op had 80k stack) i thought for a bit then folded,he showed A7 old guy had flush draw,sorry took so long to get to conclusion now everyone can be results orientated and say obv fold.

PPS It is a standard fold but pretty sure not everyone would said they'd have folded if i done it as i was but like a say laptop broke and don't want to keep everyone waiting again

I'm off to untwist my knickers,enjoy  ;D

It's a standard fold?  Don't think it's that standard is it?  If the turn or river comes higher than a 7 then we're choppity choping.  The tie is favourite in this spot. 

yeah it pretty much is a fold for me when the other guys shoves for 80k'ish. You don't know that he has a 7 and you're hoping to split the pot at best (if he shows a J or Q you're pretty much screwed)

What a horrible hand. 3-bet pre would have saved us a lot of grief on the flop imo.

Standard fold with the all-in dynamic. Villain more likely to call or fold a f/d rather than jam it. We look like an Ace...that never folds...so a jam can only mean a bigger Ace. Gambling your stack on whether it's over/under a certain card...especially after ep pre-flop raise...is not good imo.

This was a shove preflop. There is 13400 in the middle when it gets around to you which is 20% of your stack or thereabouts. The Venetian structures are deceptively quick and shallow. Yeah, it's been slow up to now but it speeds up significantly over the coming three hours or so. But, given that they are a "deepstack zomg" a shove here has a much higher chance of getting through. As American players will fold small pairs and decent aces behind the original raiser because they "can find a better spot". If you do get called, it will be from a 10BBish stack usually, but the amount of money in the middle is going to compensate for you chasing an Ace or deuce or more complicated dogging.

So ship, and the pot will usually be pushed to you after they the accumulated 3minutes of hollywooding they undertake.

In Celtic’s hand “top two in the sb” you posted about the importance of balancing your range when playing poker. Not a groundbreaking idea you said. So what if we bring the idea of range balancing to this situation. Do you ever shove a premium hand in this spot? Would you look down, see A-A, and ship 54k worth of chips into this pot? No you would not. In fact, considering your expectation is everyone folding, that would be an error anyway. So because you never balance your range when you shove the first mistake you encounter by shoving is to reveal you have a mediocre hand.

The second mistake is to offer such attractive pot odds to the short-stacks believing the “deepstack” nature of the tournament will encourage them to fold and wait for better spots. The problem is with some of your oppos holding 10bb’s or less the “deepstack” idea is irrelevant. Those guys will be feeling a sense of urgency to get chips...and what better way than here? If you were in that spot holding A-10 or 7-7 (very realistic hands randoms have called with) would you fold and wait for a better spot? with those odds? knowing your oppo is weak? What better spot is there? It’s certainly not a good spot for you to be spewing your chips in hoping to hit a deuce or whatever. I don’t think your FE is anywhere near what you think it is.

The third mistake is once you get called and table Ace-deuce your image will be LAG. Now considering your opinion is that this game is full of nits who’s mentality is “can find a better spot” and thus be pressured out of pots you really want to be building a solid image to errrr pressure them out of pots. By tabling a LAG image you now blow control at the table and get these villains thinking that better spot is vs you. So you sacrifice the best strat to win the game as a whole in order to gamble with this one individual hand alone. There’s loads of other stuff as well such as you better hope the original raiser doesn’t have premium and you don’t know the stack, styles etc of the other players.

Pushing is not good poker.

 ;tightend;

So because you think they don't have Aces that means they have a mediocre hand?! huh?

A lot of people overbet shove big hands aswell and I even saw Menlo or Timex write somewhere that at one point he was using it a lot to good effect.

I don't think you can say 'no you would not'. If the situation was right why not. If you're holding AA and you think this looks like a squeeze shoving may be the best way to get a call from really weak hands like 66.

There is 20% of your stack out there and when we shove we can expect to win the pot a huge amount of the time. Yes, of course my range won't be perfectly balanced in this spot. But that concern is going to be outweighed by the fact that we are making a play that will carry the greatest expectation of value. With AA we could just raise to 7.5k or something because that would have the greatest value.

A spot like this is so weird (raise from EP and four callers into you) that balancing isn't a massive concern anyway. The other thread concerned a completely different (and incredibly common) situation where balance was a very important aspect of being able to extract value from weaker holdings.


Have you played these tournaments? Played against live American players much? They love folding and waiting for better spots in places they shouldn't. Hate getting it in preflop when they should, etc. How will they "know" we're weak? They'll talk themselves into believing we have JJ - 88 / AK - AQ anyway.

And in anycase, you're not thinking about the type of hands they would get into the pot there with 10BB stacks without raising and then snapcall us with when we shove:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 705,469,248  games     0.032 secs    22,045,914,000  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    37.848%     34.27%    03.58%         241759112     25249106.00   { A2s }
Hand 1:    62.152%     58.57%    03.58%         413211924     25249106.00   { TT-55, AJs-A7s, KQs, AJo-A8o, KQo }

With the overlay we'll receive we want the call. Also, the range of the second all - in will usually be so tight with these guys that they would have shipped it anyway already so we don't need to worry about multiple callers.



Why should we be "hoping" the original raiser doesn't have a premium? Of course he could have a premium. He's playing a range of hands, a range that leaves him folding to this shove most of the time if he is as described. As for the rest, well, they play their cards. They always play their cards. It takes them forever to adjust, and when they do they usually have some sort of hand. We are nowhere near to the money. Our concern should be finding spots where we can expect to amass chips and add to our stack. Here is an opportunity to add 20% to it. You don't have to show when they all fold.

And if you get comments, etc, after the hand then so what? If it's a case of adjusting slightly tighter when it all has to go in that's fine. But no matter what they think of seeing A2soooted, they aren't going to suddenly fight you tooth and nail for every pot. It doesn't work that way (thankfully).


I disagree.

lol

Yeah, this is true aswell. If you thought one or more of them were "spitecallers" or "liked gambling" or whatever then shoving may be best if you had a big hand. There is no rule that says you have to slowplay or fastplay any hand 100% of the time.

 ;D

Must admit I like the shove in this spot in most comps and I'd be likely to do it if I was in a regular comp that I could play again tomorrow if it goes wrong. Is this the case here?

Out of interest what range would you want to make a standard raise here to induce a light shove or possibly play a heads up / 3 way pot?

Obv our shove with A2 is a bluff because we're only getting called if we're beat so what hand do we need for it to not be a bluff but a genuine raise?

Greek, if somebody says that they think jamming will result in everyone folding a high % of the time I think I can say with some certainty “no you would not” when the decision involves them jamming premium here. I agree jamming could be good in another situation...but this isn’t another situation.

Yes Lloyd I have a lot of live table time vs Americans and I have played this particular tournament at The Venetian several times. You opened your post with “This is a push” which sounded very certain. I have given you a host of things to think about to question how sure you are and to offer some fuel to this debate. Your responses mean you  have clearly been thinking things through, good, but I’m afraid they haven’t convinced me that pushing is anything other than a blind spewy t’internet-style gamble.

You're in Vegas while the World Series is on. Yes, this specific (in terms of buyin and structure) comp runs 4 days a week or something, but we definitely get to play something tomorrow. However, such concerns shouldn't influence our thinking. We should only be worrying about identifying the most profitable play.

The 4 bet light to induce stuff seems pretty silly to me. You make a raise to 6.5k / 7k and they are much more likely to call than to raise unless one of the small stacks shoves - in which case it isn't really "light", it is just whatever decentish cards they were playing to call and see a flop with that they cannot leave 4k behind on (though sometimes they will!). Playing a big multiway pot oop is going to be a nightmare with these stack sizes (because a decent c - bet is going to be such a huge percentage of our remaining stack). So much so, that I'd be tempted to ship AQ - AK and JJ - 99 thinking I have the best hand, but knowing that a 3 bet is going to get multiple callers and making me want to stick pins in my eyes on most flops.

With QQ - AA I'm just making it 8.5k, expecting callers and having the intention of basically never folding postflop.

ok, iv been slightly baffled by this thread. Call preflop, its not a compound error, its not like now we see A2K we are gonna go broke BECAUSE we made a mistake preflop, we didnt, we called with a hand that plays well multiway getting a great price with 50bb stacks which we can deffo play profitably.

FWIW i think shoving as a standard line preflop here is spew without an established image and some sort of read on the ep opener.

Yeah, I think the shove is spew as well. There are a lot of factors to consider in any hand, but especially when you're thinking about moving all-in from a comfortable position. I would really want to consider all those factors pretty accurately before deciding. Lloyd advocates moving in based on the way Americans play e.g."American players will fold small pairs and decent aces". But the truth is we don't even know how many of the villains are actually American to start with. Anyway...if someone gave me advice to ship because 300 million people will all fold small pairs and decent aces in this spot I would wonder how well conceived that advice was. Moving all-in is advice that can be given for any hand at all...you can squeeze all-in loads in a tournament...so what makes this squeezing situation such a special one from the rest? Why is it the right one? They are American and will fold....hmmmm....I think i'll call and see if diamonds come.

why we would want the call if we have 38% when called...

No idea if shoving is profitable or not, seems a bit spewy,  and I think that calling will generate a higher expectation vs shoving even if shoving is +ev

Because if it is against a 10BBish stack, given the money already in the middle we only need 33% or less. Maybe we aren't seeking the call (lol!), but we don't mind it.

Don't be silly - you absolutely hate being called.

Not from a 10BBish stack in this situation mate. I'd just shrug and hope to get there.

a) 1+1 = 2   

b) 3-2 =1

you are more or less saying that you prefer b)

As far as your idea of pushing goes, it probably works a lot of the time - would you do the same if the opponents were all limpers and your stack size in proportion i.e 20bbs or so?

how has no-one from luton seen this thread yet? I'd love to hear MDD's thoughts.

I'd do it quicker tbh.

I think Lloyd is picking up on quite an important concept here - and this is one of the reasons Annette15 was so succesful because she was ahead of the curve.

The hero has 50bb's

If we shove - (and can even be guaranteed that the 10BB stack will call) - we dont mind the price we are getting on the action in the situation - and losing the hand makes no real difference in tournament terms - 50bb 40 bb?!?!?!?!?!  Pot-tay-toe/pot-tar-toe


There will also be times when we get 100% folds - and occasonally wll run into KK and still have 30% equity in the hand

I am too late in the thread to give my opinion - but i like this level of thinking

Yeah, good pot-tay-toe theory. We don't mind getting 20% of our stack in as a pretty big dog because 40bb is the same as 50bb in the end. Do we then push our 40bb stack hoping to get called by a 10bb stack because 30bb is the same as 40bb? When do we put the breaks on with this idea and realise that it is just basically spewy?

As for FE...if you see the value in this pot and will so willingly toss away 10bb's...why do we believe 5 villains...some of whom are desperate...wont see the value in this pot...and will be so reluctant to part with their 10bb's? Folding means they are still desperate and will have to push any hand now....so what's the real difference in tournament terms? The big disadvantage of this "ahead of the curve" strat is that any decent player will trap us for our whole stack before the level is over

no - your point is rediculous

this is a specific situation where i am trying to suggest a theory - which certainly isnt spewy and is used with some success by some of the worlds best players

and as for your trapped comment - you can have more than 1 gear - and 1 style in your arsenal you know

I have no problem with you having opinions - but you dont have to play devils advocate to every single post you know. You can, if you like say what you would do! and then discuss. Not just down cast everyone leses views

what Lloyd/Outrageous says here is 100% correct mantis, shoving is most def +EV given the pot, our equity when called and the relative likelihood of getting called by the diff stacks with vastly different ranges.

The point i think you are trying to make (in which i am in agreement) is that there is often more than one +EV play to make and its up to us to decide upon the best route to take.

In this instance, i would argue calling> shoving purely because if we are good we should be happy to do enough funky shit postflop to makeup the shortfall of actually trying to connect with A2dd oop.

I'm playing devil's advocate in this one because we have the barest of information and think we know what's what at the table all of a sudden. The squeeze play works. But squeezing here is based on just pot-size. That one thing alone. So while you can prove there's value in the pot how can you prove it's the right time to squeeze? You've been at the table 30 mins, no clue who's doing what, you don't know stack sizes, you don't have ranges for any of the players, you haven't established any sort of image, but you would ship in your 54k fast. And that's quality poker? I reckon there'll be lots of better informed squeezing opportunities than this in the game so why is diving into this one so right? It's simply spewy. What would I do? Call and see if diamonds come down.

so i get the bit about if monda goes allin with a Ace 2 blue and he gets it in vs the range already described with 10bbs then its ok cos of all the dead monies.  I also get the fact that erry1 else is gunna fold heaps but like how often is the utg guy gunna fold (obv his range turns out to be super wide since he has A7 but is it safe to assume that ur average utg opener is this wide?  what i mean is obv this guy opens wide utg but u dont know this till after the hand, so is it really a good idea to model the hand on such a large range?). + u mite have to factor in sometimes ppl dont 3bet utg openers when they hold premiums cos they know how strong it looks.

so say utg is opening:  22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,A6o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o,87o,76o,65o = 32.7% of hands
and calling our 50bb jam with: JJ+,AKs,AKo = 3% of hands

so 9.1% of the time we get it in A2s v JJ+,AKs,AKo for 2400x6 + 10x100 ante = 15,400 + 52,600 + 52,600 = 120,600

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    29.528%     28.50%    01.03%          64407420      2333880.00   { A2s }
Hand 1:    70.472%     69.44%    01.03%         156948948      2333880.00   { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

so 9.1% of the time our cEV wud be 120,600 x 0.295 = 35,577

the other 90.9% of the time depends on how often we get called elsewhere and for how many chips

so assuming erry1 else has 10bbs and has flatted the open with a range of :TT-22,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T6s+,96s+,85s+,75s+,65s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,97o+,86o+,75o+,64o+,54o = 40.6%

and are going to get it in with the range described before of: TT-55,AJs-A7s,KQs,AJo-A8o,KQo =9% of hands

so chance of erry1 else folding ((40.6 - 9)/ 40.6 )^4 = 0.778^4 = 0.366

so 0.336 x 0.909 = 0.333 so 33.3% of the time we win the pot uncontested for a 14k chip increase

the remaining 57.6% of the time we get it in as in luckyloyds post :

  equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    37.848%     34.27%    03.58%         241759112     25249106.00   { A2s }
Hand 1:    62.152%     58.57%    03.58%         413211924     25249106.00   { TT-55, AJs-A7s, KQs, AJo-A8o, KQo }

where the pot will be 15.4k + 10k + 10k = 35.4k

and our cEV will be 0.378 * 35.4 + remaining stack of 42.6k = 56k

so (0.091* 35.5) + (0.333*(54+14)) + (0.576 * 56) = 58.1k

so jamming is +ev compared to folding by 4.1k

however i think vs ur avergage utg opener his range is much tighter and would personaly asign an opening range of: 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo =11.6 % of hands
and calling our 50bb jam with: JJ+,AKs,AKo = 3% of hands

so 25.9% of the time we get it in A2s v JJ+,AKs,AKo for 120,600

so now 0.366 * 74.1% =27.1% of the time we win the pot uncontested
and 47% of the time we get it in v 10bbs

so (0.259* 35.5) + (0.271*(54+14)) + (0.47 * 56) = 53.94

so applying a tighter range to the utg opener monda would be 600 chips worse off than folding

so I guess shoving here has a value of somewhere between minus 600 chips and plus 4100 chips using the above models.  Im all for taking edges when you can rather than folding for the "phantom edge" but tbh I dont think there is much edge in jamming here especially when you alternatively flat call which is generally accepted would also be a +ev play(?).  I also think that the flatting ranges of some of the callers would also be tighter (and stronger containg TT+)  and therefore more likely to get it in with us (although we make chips when we get it in, we make more when we win uncontested thus reducing our overall ev).  Also some of the callers are likely to have larger stacks than 10bbs and when we get it in with those stacks with poor equity its obv even worse, however we also get it in less often since the more chips they have the more reluctant they are to get it in - again this depends on assigning ranges.

vs a table of half decent players shoving here is terrible, vs a table of venetian baguettes its maybe ok sometimes but probably a worse play than just calling

postflop I think I play the same as monda.

wow, mr middy A+

Good post. I would expect young players with an online tournament background to have extremely wide opening ranges when antes are in play. Though yes, I concede that for this to be good, I'm assuming he's opening too wide. Plenty to chew over, cheers.

middy has spoken

/ thread! :-)

Good work tom

Who hacked into middy's account?

I think there are other reasons to 3-bet here. The argument for not squeezing here is that it looks like an obvious spot to squeeze. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I would be interested to hear what hands people think we should be 3-betting here ? Only premiums or are we squeezing with any pocket pair ? A suited ace doesn't seem like a bad hand to be making this play with. In general players don't 3-bet enough and they fold too often. I still like the 3-bet here but concede that I don't see much of a difference between 3-bet//shoving/calling. I think we should be making all these plays a percentage of the time. Usually calling, sometimes 3-betting and sometimes shoving.

As for getting funky on the flop 5-way to win it with ace high OOP - what ?

Hmm. I think if we are good we'll tend to play it fairly straight postflop when oop in a five way pot.

So call then yeah?

Internet poker players confuse me. Look how in depth that post is regarding the complexity of this situation. You guys take extensive notes about players, and use all the poker resource tools available to track their stats and playing tendencies. Then you produce complex equations which allow you to arrive at calling %’s to 3 decimal places. That is impressive. And it clearly gives most of you guys an edge in any random poker game you play. But when you sit down at that random live poker game you make a decision to push your whole stack based on some monies in the pot and a vague guess about unknown villains, what cards they have, and what they will do. I don’t get that. Complex theories to all Americans fold pair theories.

I agree with daviebhoy that we should mix things up. But this isn’t to build our overall stats that make up our Sharkscope ratings, it’s the first play we choose at this table. That’s a pretty significant thing to consider imo.

Mantis.

I don't know what to say.

Middy were you bored?

I'm about as far removed from an internet player as you'll find fwiw.

It would be good if he was bored more often.

tru dat

taking a smaller ev play to set up a even bigger ev play further down the line is always an argument in lots of forums and i guess it all depends on how much play is in the tourney.  with the stack sizes and having a table of unknowns i often think jamming shudnt be that bad but in my experiance the fourth limper always calls with somet like aj or 88 then im crushed and think i could of found a better spot. im far to aggro in these spots against unknowns and i think its deffo not been plus ev in my experiance

4th limper should never be calling - its the 1st guy u gotta worry about. 4th limper comes in with the hands you describe to 'see a flop'. he is never the guy to be worried about because he iso's the limpers if he has a hand

i know u shudnt be worried but im sayin from my experiance and me with my aggro image at the table. annette15 style i always get called by the 4th limper . it dont work like the domino affect when u have a aggro image its more like they cant call u quick enough. guess it all comes down to ya table image and mine isnt super solid so when these spots represent them selfs i find my self thinking why oh why do they set me up akipper its like they know there limping to snap the aggro kid in the blinds off. all a learning curve i guess.

With an LAG image the raise here is horrible.

In this specific situation being discussed our image is tight. Imo if we continue to play tight then we are not exploiting our good image. I understand the argument being put forward by Mantis and it is a very standard line and there isn't anything wrong with peeling and hoping to see a flop. Sometimes you need to stray a little bit from the standard line. Its all about making the wrong move at the right time and all that...

i agrea but u gotta donk around in these spots from time to time to see how much u can get away with. super solid image shud be a deffo squeeze i guess on paper.  lol