blonde poker forum

Watching the players arrive at Walsall this weekend I  wondered at the mentality of people turning up for 'work', paying for the privilge and grinding it out for hours on end with no guarantee of a pay day. Ask your postman to turn up for work without pay and see what happens.

The profession of poker is shared with amateurs who also hold down a day job and in their spare time roll up to pit their skill against the pro's.

What other professions do this?  You can't go to the dentist and get treated by the amateur who just works weekends, but has read a book and seen some dentistry on tv and thinks he might be quite good at it. I can only think of one mix between pros and amateurs; non league football vs the league teams. Anyone got other examples?

Who has the advantage? The pro or amateur? The amateur because the outcome isn't so much life and death just because they have a pay day at the end of the week, or the pro because he has had sleep and hasn't fitted in this tournament between other full time work and taking the kids to school?

As I watched the old school players playing for their tournament life I realised this is all they know, being gamblers they accept the uncertain payday and lifestyle without question, they haven't gone out and got a 'job' to help ends meet,they just keep grinding it out and keep hoping the cards will fall favourably. Every day, day after day, always uncertain. Some of them for over fourty or fifty years.

Is it resilience or madness?

Great post Tracy. I can draw a parallel to this. In the early 80's I left my factory job at Michelin which by local employers standards of rates was one of the best paid. I knew there was more out there and couldn't see me pushing a brush around a factory floor at retirement age so I looked into sales jobs. The biggest rewards were the commission only ones but like poker players there is no guarantee you will earn anything. No sale no pay. The first company never worked out but I found one with good training and I learned my trade and was soon trebleing my Michelin inome. I used to tell my self that every morning I put on my suit for work I was unemployed, I had to go and find my income, just like a poker player.

As a self employed person I had to fund myself, clothing, vehicle costs etc but no where near the amount poker players have to. Obviously I am talking mainly about tournament players, they may have to shell out thousands with buy ins and accomodation, travelling the country before making a decent cash maybe showing little overall profit. To some the circuit and the game is a way of life not a job.

Poker for me is a hobby and one that I love. Like work I think if you learn to do it well and continue to learn the results will come.

Best of luck at the felt wether you do it for a living or like me a profitable hobby.

Great post.   :)up

It could be worse.

Take golf for an example.  The pro's and amateurs play side by side for the glory of taking the trophy.  Oh, but hang on, if an amateur wins it, they don't get the prize money.

I'm not sure in poker who's got the advantage, based on the mixed results you can get, and as we all know, everyone can get their hot streak day, where things just go right no matter how bad you might play it.

I'll take poker over golf any day of the week.

i don't think the poker player is the only profession which is under no guarantee to earn money for hours of work,   there are pro gamblers who only back the horses or football,American sports, the same attitude is needed, Patience, nerve, controled aggression,and a lot of hard work before you are ready to go to work, i think you also have to take the losses in your stride,they are inevitable,
was it Doyle Brunson  who said summed it up perfect,
It,s a Hard Way To Earn A Easy Living

Stock market day trading.  My mate does it (pretty well genned up, Masters from LSE and all that crap), at 10 am he's sitting in front of his lappy with green and red flashing numbers all over the place, hair gets pulled out often and he can work very hard and apply a ton of knowledge and skill over a 13 hour day and still end up thousands out of pocket. He does well though and it fits well with his general temperament of being unable to work with other humans.

Really interesting posts.

Obviously if you play full time then your classed as a 'pro' but I wonder how many of them make a comfortable living and live a 'normal' life.

It seems most of the people I come into who play full time have very unstable lifes, no real assets and although they may be flush most of the time their will undoubtedly be a day when they tap you up for a loan, theyre obviously good for it, theyve just had a bad streak.

Then at the bottom of the chain you know the people who are just spinning up their dole money week in week out.

Theyre are obviously some guys who make a fortune and live very comfortably from it, but at the level i play at £75-£350 live events, nearly all the guys who I respect at the table as people and as players are people who do not have poker as their main income.

Obviously this is a generalisation and there are exceptions to what Ive said above, but I would be interested to know if people agree/disagree with my thoughts.

The word 'professional' is the most misused word we use in the game, some people make plenty of money, their only income in fact, from poker but are not really 'professional' at all. To me a 'professional' poker player will be someone who carefully picks what games they play and calculates what their edge is in them, manages their travel expenses well, conduct themselves like a gent at the tables win lose or draw and then studies and reviews the hands they played after the tournament, win lose or draw.

But most 'pros' turn up to whatever game is on that weekend, splash their cash around, moan about bad beats, jump into the first cash game they can find when they bust out (making a quick trip to the bar or the roulette table on their way) and find reasons to explain why they were 'right' to have gone out of the tournament the way they did rather than soul search at what lessons could be learnt.

Dont get me wrong, very talented players many of them and will do very well, just I haven't met that many professional players who genuinely appear to treat the game like a day in the office.

Others are just unemployed but do ok at poker at the moment.

I've met many people who work in office's who don't act 'professional'.

If a civil servant came into the office, dossed about on the internet all day and did the minimum amount needed to just not get sacked  - wouldn't stop them being a professional civil servant.

If you make a living playing poker then you're a professional imo
but that's different to acting in a professional manner

its a total mind fuck!

having to deal with winnin and losing £xxxx in day is pretty tough, and then after to not go and blow it on x!

i hav found also that you hav to b very motivated to do it because otherwise you wont make any money! plus side is you can get up w/e u want, take breaks, go and play live and communicate with ppl socially whilst "working" and hav fun doin it, also it tax free weeeeeeeeee

gr8 post btw

+1

From the age of like 17-21 if you'd have asked me what I wanted to do for a living I would have said nothing but poker because until recently I haven't had some of the skills needed (bankroll management/tilt issues etc) to be successful at the game this never happened for me. I was fixated on being a poker pro. Things have changed a lot since then.

This year I expect to make about £20-30k profit from online poker (should be more but I've pissed away plenty on table games in the early part of the year). Considering this is tax free, without other investments its more than I'll make from my job after working for a year. I wouldn't even consider packing up my job even if I was earning twice as much. This is not because of career prospects of moving up the ladder or even because I enjoy my job (I don't really - don't dislike it either mind). Why?

I think poker is a pretty unhealthy path.

How many poker 'pros' do you see round the table who have colour in their skin? How many look like they eat healthily and get regular exercise? Not many.

How many have pensions, own their homes and make financial provisions for the future (not just where their next buy in is going to come from)? Not many.

How many even look like they've had sex in the last gajillion years? Not many.

Part of the problem is that there is a glorious image made of poker and poker players when the reality of it all is masked. 80% of these so called pros in the are busto more often than not. It's a sad sight when you see 60 year old men and supposedly reputable people waiting for people to get up in cash games to nip them and people constantly scrounging of others just to stay in the game. For every Flushy or Moorman there's 20 people who do their spuds on the game and have no prospects. Even many of the sponsored pros have nothing. For every Thewy there's another 5 guys who owe money to casinos and are up to their eyeballs in debts. I could tell lots of stories about individuals that would surprise a lot of people but it's unfair and irresponsible to mention names but it would paint one hell of a different picture than the poker media does.

If it all goes tits up for a pro...what next? 'Excuse me mr employer I haven't done a job since I was 19 because I've been busy in casinos'. [  ] We'll be in touch.

In short I think a lot of people, like me, should be happy to have poker as a hobby. Without any financial pressure or need to win I enjoy the game a lot more. Luckily I'm a casual player who wins but I wasn't always a winner and if I wasn't I would still be more than happy to invest a few thousand each year into poker because of my love for the game. I think those who play for a living should really consider whether what they are doing is right for them before it's too late.

I loved the weekend, sleeping over, getting more sleep despite the bangra drummers outside my window at 10am on Sunday, I play better as I'm less stressed about travelling and I loved the cameraderie pre tourney which I normally miss.

It's quite normal to have a conversation about someone who has gone bust, nothing strange there. Are we all in denial about the shifting sands poker provides?

Do I love playing? Yes
Do I love love love the second day of a comp when you can answer the poker groupies "yes I'm still in".
Do I enjoy staying away? Yes but it would quickly wane if I did it full time.
Could I do it full time? Ignoring the ability factor (!) I doubt it. although I would love to.

Are we hopefuls striving for a big win so we can do it full time?

I started this thread early this morning when I was envious of the pro who would be sleeping in till later, not having to readjust from a late finish. With the sun shining outside would i want to be sleeping through this? Probably not.

I admire the pros greatly, but agree with Mr Shoelace that I'm not sure how many are pro's. The gambling gene that has to be within the player to some extent makes being a 'pro' almost impossible surely.

If I try and name 'pro's' in poker Julian Thew comes to mind - paid off his mortgage, has a career he could return to if needed and appears to approach the game sensibly. But there don't seem to be many like Julian.

The young guns don't have responsibilites yet, some of the Shrewdies may play for a living but often live at home and have little responsibility. Lucky them? I'm not sure.

If they had to do anything else could the young guys readjust? Or are they consigned to a life of gambling for ever, making ends meet and going busto? Gus Hansen is a pro and has gone bust a fair few times I think.

Will any of this stop me playing, wanting to be like the big boys? Absolutely not. We are a wierd bunch!

Good post GreekStein. Sadly, too true.

Overall, I'd say it's a really unwise path for many to choose.

 Aspades
Good posts and all contain some usefull insights and thoughts on what it takes to be a "pro" player and as one poster says what is a pro player anyway ?
Poker for me personally is like a business I have been self employed all my life so playing poker is no different . Choice of game , managing my current bankroll ( Not my savings) and laying my money out in games I can and do beat on a regular basis. To win I have to have no ego and play at limits that will not put me under financial pressure . Just like any other business I keep records of dates ,time, win - loss and game type adjusting my level accordingly. My stock in trade is money ,when I win I may spend a little on the good things in life I enjoy but overall I know that my bankroll is my means to make a living and not just money to spend. With experience comes the knowledge and mindset required to play this way and sure I would love to win a big tournament to get myself out of the daily grind (well four days anyhow) and maybe one day I will, but I fully realise that travelling all over the place paying thousands in tournament entry fees ,travel costs and hotels is a sure fire recipe for bankroll destruction. Of course a selected few who have got lucky will know what its like to win big early in their careers and travel the World with hundreds of thousands in their pockets and good luck to them but for the majority whether they be amateurs or pros the reality is it will be a long hard slog and as well as the pleasure there will be disapointment and pain and, plenty of it !
The key question for me is  "Would I swop my life ?" and the answer is "No" When that answer becomes "yes" then I know it is time to quit, until that day comes every day I wake up and the lights are on... it`s a good day

I sat at a heads up cash table last night and ran really good, ok I played alright but mostly I was on the right side of coldish decks. This morning I did think about the other guy a bit, thinking how shit it's felt when I'm in that position, and how it's possible that money maybe meant something to him, he was down on his luck and decided to spin up the little he had left, etc. Ok my pain for him (ahem) is tempered by the fact that he was trying to do the same to me.
In how many other 'professions' does your gain only come at another's direct expense? Stock daytrading is one...

I'm not so happy with that scenario. I don't just want to get paid in £££, I'd rather contribute something to people and society a bit.

It's over rated

I'd happily contribute less to society if I could have some personal financial security instead

Good post.......you probably shouldnt play heads up cash though if thats your viewpoint  :D

I couldn't play poker for a living.  Besides not being good or disciplined enough, I think the minute I had to start treating it like a job rather than a hobby would take all the fun out of it for me. That said, if I had a large enough bankroll to comfortably take the downswings, then I imagine there must be worse ways to make a living.  The trouble I'm having at the moment is finding work to let me fund my hobby, I'm without both at the moment!

Real job ftw every time.

Unless you're sick good and can pretty much guarantee that you'll make at least six figures Sterling per year from the game, I don't think the financial rewards from grinding justify the not having a proper career and all the other negative things about playing pro poker.

Always remember at a poker training session, when Dave Colclough was asked for this best advise on being a poker player.........


"Have a job as well !"

Good post, I would say the points you raised are why you should always wait untill you are financially secure for an extended peroid of time before going 'Pro' (i.e. have 6-12 months living expenses away from poker).

It also helps relieve pressure to have some sort of back up plan, whether that be an effective degree, some sort of training, or anything else which would help you get a decent job.

This is a great post imo.

And this sort of attitude is basically why alot of players will tend to have nothing to show for their undoubted technical poker skills.

I rate a poker player on the basis of all the things mentioned above, and if someone is really talented, but is always flat broke because they lack self control and play games they cant beat, then they are fish - just like the guy who just learnt the game and donks off his £50 a week that he has spare from his regular job.

Sadly, i feel the reason alot of profesionals act in an unproffesional manner by playing games they cant afford/beat, and splashing the cash when they travel to live tournaments (when they could be alot more sensible and actually turn a far higher profit for the trip by travelling in a smarter way, or taking a cheaper hotel room) is because they need to protect their image. They need everyone to see this ultra successful poker player. It is really pathetic, and personally i dont care if people think i am broke or a pussy, if i dont feel comfortable playing a certain game then i wont do it. If i go to a hotel, i will try and get a cheap deal to increase the profitabilty of the trip, regardless of whether another poker player is in the penthouse suite getting respect from his fellow players

Bit of a jumbled ramble :P but i am tired so forgive me

This is also an impressive post from someone who has made enough from poker to own the hotel and the penthouse suite.

lol, one day i hope. But alas, that day is along way off. Its probably more likely that i will be sleeping rough in the doorway of the hotel begging from the guy in the penthouse suite in a few years

Good post GreekStein so true.

I agree with Claire, I look forward to a game of poker as a hobby too. If I did it for a living what would I do for a hobby.

I love the fact that you can get into large comps on the cheap as I did last night. (obviously thinly disguised "I won a seat " post). €30 sat gets me into the €110 super sat and in October I'm off to Killarney to play with the big boys in the Laddies festival. You can't do that in many other sports/hobbies now can you.

Intereting posts these, particularly DaveShoelace's.

The simple truth is that a lot of 'professional' live poker players are people who are just degen gamblers who managed to get by in the days before internet poker because few live poker players really knew what they were doing, meaning they could survive even with their spins on the wheel of death or whatever.

Now either the internet kidz are taking all their monies or these guys can actually beat the game but have no bankroll to withstand variance.

Proper job +  poker on the side (+ staking board :) ) FTW.

excellent post... one of many on this thread!

I tried this doing nothing but play poker for a while.
[ ] I was good enough
[ ] I liked playing poker after 2 months
[ ] I will try it again.

Poker as a hobby can be frustrating enough..I don't need the grief FT.

Horsies FTW for me.

as far as the 'professional' debate is concerned i think people are getting the two different meanings of the word confused. professional (noun) - earning the majority of their income from the game and professional (verb, ie acting professionally) - which is a judgement on an individuals attitude and behaviour. its possible to be either, both or none imo.

personally, as far as going full time professional is concerned, i think you need a passion for the game that you cant measure without trying FT and a staking/sponsorship deal to help with the crazy variance

just my 2 cents

I used to be a professional poker player, but I gave up when boldie packed it in.

I was playing my usual nosebleed stakes cash game last night (if you bang your face off the keyboard enough...) and I saw this guy make an amazing call on the river with bottom pair, for quite a lot of money really. 'Er...great call' came the gracious chatbox cry from the loser (terrible call at the right time). The winner's reply was brief yet beautiful.. 'Pro'. Loser, not quite so gracious: "Prostitute?"

This sure is a great thread for someone who left their job 5 weeks ago, and has just got back from Vegas eager to start their new career as a professional online poker player.

Financially i should be ok, coz i have a comfortable enough amount in the bank and am staked by a good friend for Poker as we all know, but its health aspects that im more worried about.

Want to get into a routine of getting up for 1/2pmish everyday then having a few hours where i can go to the gym or play tennis or watch the racing or see family or whatever before hitting the tourns from 6pm - midnight or later.

Might struggle to maintain that tho.

As a poker pro do you consider being staked in your best interests as a professional?

Surely when you make the move to full time with poker as your predominant/only/main source of income you should be bankrolled sufficiently to have 100% of your own action?

Is it not to your significant disadvantage to be giving up half your profits and having to pay makeup rather than playing a little smaller at the start and having 100% of your own action where surely you would make more money?

Interested to know your take on this and I know I'm probably missing something hugely fundamental as I know a lot of the top online players are staked but as a cash player this is something that has intrigued me a lot about MTT folk.

I often wonder about this too. Lets just say he is playing for 50% of his action and getting staked for $100 MTTs, what's the difference between that and him playing $50 MTTs on his own dime? Where the standard will be softer and the fields bigger (Which is both good and bad). I know in the first case he isnt using his own money, but he still is using an effective bankroll with the makeup.

Obviously loadas variables, such as rakeback/loyalty payments etc. Also, should be get staked into a 'major' and manage to bink it, that might open doors elsewhere for him.

thought you had to be pretty sick to be an MTT pro  :)

You lot have the village gym 5mins walk away! and David Loyds 10mins in the car (with 15 tennis courts) you have no excuse.

is laziness not a valid excuse?  I've been using that one for months when it comes to the gym!

Did you see them on the boat?  ;technolog;

I'm just hoping for it to be officially recognised as a medical condition.

in my experience, the only people who leave poker to get a job are either not good enough or used terrible bankroll management.

Its the best job in the world, lets be honest.

First quote is certainly true.

Second quote is very arguable

I think a lot of the american wunderkids who are backed by Bax/Sheets/others are backed online for a number of reasons but one of them is that it is the only way they can get backed for large buy-in live tournaments. Due to variance/no way to ever get a true sample size it's simple impossible for pretty much anyone to get a 'live only' backing, so some of them give up some % of their online profits in exchange for live backing, chance to bink a $1mil ($500k)+ score and get sponsorship, there was a massive thread or two on 2+2 about why play MTTs and makeup and Andy Ward (ldo) wrote a good blog about the whole thing (May 11th - EZ Life) http://secretsoftheamateurs.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html

Ive been playing for a living for the last 4 years since i finished uni. When i first left uni i wanted a job within the sport/football industry but i just got lazy and decided to continue to grind cos i was making more than my mates in full time jobs were. Ive lived fairly comfortably bought a few things, been on a few hols, paid rent and bills etc. It used to be alright when some of my mates stayed around to  do their last year at uni or to start their masters, so i always had someone around the house and could in a way continue to live the student life. The last year has been a bit different as most of my mates moved away./started new jobs, so me getting up at gay o clock and having no one to talk to/do stuff with during the day has been dog shit. After all there is only so much Pro Evo you can play.

Recently ive been looking more into getting a proper job that i would want to do, in fact me and a friend have been in touch with our local council about an application to start a coaching academy (its been approved btw). There's been two main reasons why i want a proper job a) so i can have a routine be in contact with normal people (i dont mind degens, but not all the time) and b) get a mortgage, i just think its a bout time i bought a house instead of renting all the time and have a place of my own. Obviously if i bink a massive score i could just buy a house straight up, but i dont particulary run good in decent comps.

Don't get me wrong its been fun and being able to do what i want when i want is cool, but i wanna just be able to do a 'proper' job i love, id still play poker but just not as my only source of income. I wont go for any job though, only something that id be happy with.


Waffling a bit now so ill stop. Anyway thats my 2 cents.

Very odd to hear a poker profressional say he "doesn't particularly run good in decent comps" seems like a pretty big misunderstanding of the situation. You run pretty much the same as everyone else.

I imagine a very rewarding & very frustrating job at the same time...

Maybe, but that wasnt the point of the post.

great thread, especially the 2 plus 2 links.