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Poker Forums => Poker Hand Analysis => Topic started by: Skint Eastwood on July 03, 2009, 11:05:44 PM



Title: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 03, 2009, 11:05:44 PM
Just restarted playing at PokerStars. Not much in account so I'm on 0.25/0.50 cash table. 10 mins in I go late position 1.50 with Qd 5d, blinds call.

Flop comes:    Td 7d Ad

I go 2.50 small blind check-calls. Turn is a blank, I think I'll check it, let him try to bluff me on the river.
River's a blank too, he goes $7, so I make it $16.  He goes all-in "oh, so maybe he's flopped a set, maybe
even a lower flush" I think. I call for the $30 I have left and of course he's got

  Kd 8d.

So did I do wrong? Maybe I just call the $7 as I'm newish to the table & don't know the player's style? Or can I assume that in most cases I'm way ahead, so get the chips in?

If you can flop 2nd nuts and think you're losing to the nuts you'd be too paranoid to play the game, right?


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Newmanseye on July 03, 2009, 11:12:23 PM
you cant ever fold here to be fair, just one of them hands that make you sick.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: AlexMartin on July 04, 2009, 02:12:16 AM
standard. 6m or fullring? bet the turn aswell please. coolers happen, dont worry.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: MC on July 04, 2009, 12:54:32 PM
Flat calling the river bet would be bad. You have to raise, and you have to call when he shoves even though you don't love it.

Def bet the turn like Alex said...


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 04, 2009, 01:43:49 PM
It was ironic really, I had only just moved to PokerStars coz I was sick of the coolers I was getting on another site. The last big one to happen was against a proper Scandi chasing/bluffing idiot. The guy was a total moron, and I had won big pots v him before, but...

He limps in for 50c, I make it $3.50 with  Aspades Qd.

Long story short the flop comes  Ad 4d 2d, and I do my stack to his  5d 3d.

What can u do?


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: MANTIS01 on July 04, 2009, 01:48:28 PM
...that will be £1 in total now


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: AlexMartin on July 04, 2009, 02:08:01 PM
2nd hand is waaaaaaay different to 1st.




Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Dubai on July 04, 2009, 02:25:01 PM
Id fold both, looks like the nuts to me in both.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: GreekStein on July 04, 2009, 02:53:38 PM
Id fold both, looks like the nuts to me in both.

Welcome back Dubai! You've made blonde a better place today


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: gatso on July 04, 2009, 02:55:24 PM
It was ironic really, I had only just moved to PokerStars coz I was sick of the coolers I was getting on another site.

sigh


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: MC on July 04, 2009, 03:09:48 PM
It was ironic really, I had only just moved to PokerStars coz I was sick of the coolers I was getting on another site.

sigh

+1

[ ] Good logic
[ ] This will prevent future coolers


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 05, 2009, 10:09:51 PM
It was ironic really, I had only just moved to PokerStars coz I was sick of the coolers I was getting on another site.

sigh

+1

[ ] Good logic
[ ] This will prevent future coolers

LOL!

Yeah, I suppose that's a bit like going to a different poker forum to avoid sarcastic comments.

I know the site doesn't matter, its just that I needed a change, and the change has helped me reverse a little bad streak I was having.

As for the second hand I detailed, its hard to really judge me without knowing what a total moron the other guy was. He cud've literally had any 2, he was calling flops with sweet FA, no draw, nothing.
This is how bad he was: On   Qd 7d 9s  with 5 players in the hand, 2 call a big raise & he pushes with Qc Jc from the big blind (he got 3 callers, 7h 7d, Kd 4d, and me with Ad 5d, I hit the river for a nice pot).

Anyway, I was just interested in how easy you think it is to fold flop 2nd nuts.






Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: jakally on July 06, 2009, 01:03:37 AM

Why do you call someone a moron / idiot, just cos they play a different way to you / badly / not optimally (delete as you think appropriate).
He could be the nicest guy in the world, just enjoying a game of cards.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 07, 2009, 03:48:17 PM

Why do you call someone a moron / idiot, just cos they play a different way to you / badly / not optimally (delete as you think appropriate).
He could be the nicest guy in the world, just enjoying a game of cards.

Maybe he's not an idiot/moron, he just plays poker like one. Is that better for you?

Maybe he is a nice guy, possibly successful, and therefore has money to waste attempting to play a game that he has very limited understanding of. How would you describe a player who consistantly puts chips into a pot when he's clearly way behind?

It's not personal. I seek out players like this. I have a list. I want him to be chucking his money away. I enjoy playing against morons.

Until they flop a str8 flush against me.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Ironside on July 08, 2009, 02:00:38 AM

Why do you call someone a moron / idiot, just cos they play a different way to you / badly / not optimally (delete as you think appropriate).
He could be the nicest guy in the world, just enjoying a game of cards.

Maybe he's not an idiot/moron, he just plays poker like one. Is that better for you?

Maybe he is a nice guy, possibly successful, and therefore has money to waste attempting to play a game that he has very limited understanding of. How would you describe a player who consistantly puts chips into a pot when he's clearly way behind?

It's not personal. I seek out players like this. I have a list. I want him to be chucking his money away. I enjoy playing against morons.

Until they flop a str8 flush against me.


from the hands you have posted he play a bit like a few very good talent players

infact gus hasen plays thse sort of hands and he has won a little bit more than me


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: vinni on July 08, 2009, 01:58:28 PM
what you doing playing Q 5 anyway.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 08, 2009, 05:44:18 PM
Quote
from the hands you have posted he play a bit like a few very good talent players

infact gus hasen plays thse sort of hands and he has won a little bit more than me

Does Gus Hansen check-re-raise all-in with weak top pair after three players have called a big raise? (Actually I was listening to Brian Hastings the other day, he was saying he doesn't play at nosebleed levels any more, $250-$500 for example, unless Hansen is on. Not everyone rates him as highly as you.)

Trust me, this guy hadn't got a clue. He called a 7 x PFR with crap, & got very lucky. Consistently losing on a 50 cent table doesn't make you a "very good talent player" !

But this is pretty off topic now. Forget it.



Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: david3103 on July 09, 2009, 06:53:13 AM
what you doing playing Q 5 anyway.

This is a good question - late position or not, raising with Q5 can't be +ve can it?



Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: daviebhoy on July 09, 2009, 12:42:42 PM
This is a good question - late position or not, raising with Q5 can't be +ve can it?

Depends completely on how tight the blinds are. As K8s called then probably not.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 09, 2009, 03:45:36 PM
what you doing playing Q 5 anyway.

This is a good question - late position or not, raising with Q5 can't be +ve can it?
Well its hardly the loosest play in the world, but TBH I normally don't play suited Q, because of the dangers of the higher flush. In this case I was pretty new to the table, it seemed tight, and I thought I'd test the water a little, for info as much as anything else. Obviously looking back I didn't have enough info on the guy with K8, so should have avoided such a big pot. But then I flopped 2nd nuts! And saw no danger on turn & river. What can you do?!


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: EvilPie on July 09, 2009, 04:05:09 PM
what you doing playing Q 5 anyway.

This is a good question - late position or not, raising with Q5 can't be +ve can it?
Well its hardly the loosest play in the world, but TBH I normally don't play suited Q, because of the dangers of the higher flush. In this case I was pretty new to the table, it seemed tight, and I thought I'd test the water a little, for info as much as anything else. Obviously looking back I didn't have enough info on the guy with K8, so should have avoided such a big pot. But then I flopped 2nd nuts! And saw no danger on turn & river. What can you do?!

I'm no expert on these games but a lot of your thinking here seems pretty bad.

You say you don't play suited Q often because of the danger of the higher flush? Wtf else are you hoping for other than a flush? They're hardly the most connected cards in the world.

Why were you in such a rush to test the water? Another way to do this is to watch others raising and see how players react to their raises. You're not really testing the water yourself unless you get to see their cards which in this hand you did because he'd flopped the nuts.

Testing the water to see if people will pass is flawed imo. Say for example you test the water and everyone passes. Great you've got a tight table. So you raise again and they pass. Great it's still tight. You then raise again but everyone now knows you're at it and 3 bets you because you are an habitual raiser. Ok this time you may not be at it but because you raise to "test the water" your vpip increases so everyone widens your opening range.  Unless you have the specific intention of looking like a loose cannon to then go on and make money from your big hands you can get in a lot of trouble using this tactic.

You might not intentionally be a maniac but you can soon start to look like one if you test the water too often.

Btw. Once you've flopped 2nd nuts do not pass ever. No matter how deep.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: Skint Eastwood on July 09, 2009, 06:12:54 PM
Quote
You say you don't play suited Q often because of the danger of the higher flush? Wtf else are you hoping for other than a flush? They're hardly the most connected cards in the world.
Like I said, I don't usually like playing that kind of hand. I put $1.50 in, so I was hardly committed.

Quote
Ok this time you may not be at it but because you raise to "test the water" your vpip increases so everyone widens your opening range.  Unless you have the specific intention of looking like a loose cannon to then go on and make money from your big hands you can get in a lot of trouble using this tactic.
Appreciate the analysis, no idea what my "vpip" is but I'm aware of how my table image can be affected. I was about 15 hands in, & saw little value in limping against what seemed like a bunch of very passive players.

Quote
Btw. Once you've flopped 2nd nuts do not pass ever. No matter how deep.
Thanks!

I like it how one guy knocks me for playing Q5s, and the next one suggests calling a x7 pfr with 53s is some kind of Gus Hansen type genius! That's what forums are all about I suppose. I notice neither of them made a 2nd post though.


Title: Re: Fold flop second nut flush?
Post by: bolt pp on July 09, 2009, 06:29:51 PM
Quote
You say you don't play suited Q often because of the danger of the higher flush? Wtf else are you hoping for other than a flush? They're hardly the most connected cards in the world.
Like I said, I don't usually like playing that kind of hand. I put $1.50 in, so I was hardly committed.

Quote
Ok this time you may not be at it but because you raise to "test the water" your vpip increases so everyone widens your opening range.  Unless you have the specific intention of looking like a loose cannon to then go on and make money from your big hands you can get in a lot of trouble using this tactic.
Appreciate the analysis, no idea what my "vpip" is but I'm aware of how my table image can be affected. I was about 15 hands in, & saw little value in limping against what seemed like a bunch of very passive players.

Quote
Btw. Once you've flopped 2nd nuts do not pass ever. No matter how deep.
Thanks!

I like it how one guy knocks me for playing Q5s, and the next one suggests calling a x7 pfr with 53s is some kind of Gus Hansen type genius! That's what forums are all about I suppose. I notice neither of them made a 2nd post though.

vpip = how hard you're grinding your teeth x the pressure in lbs you're applying to the mouse = how stressed you are.

if you play a hand like this your vpip increases