blonde poker forum

Not that interesting hand but a spot where I probs leak chips late on so looking for advice on how to play this when I get flat called here with shallow stacks....

I'm playing for stacks preflop with the 2 20bb players behind me, but when he flats I'm not sure what best play is oop??

Check/fold is seems so weak, but bet fold is just spew with my stack I think??

Is check raise AI a viable option??

Player hasn't really done anything out of the ordinary, or note worthy since he been at table

Ta

PokerStars Game #30124741412: Tournament #175252885, $40+$4 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2009/07/05 14:16:56 ET
Table '175252885 12' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: wimpie98 (29149 in chips)
Seat 3: Medrakil (42732 in chips)
Seat 4: T_Mar79 (19446 in chips)
Seat 5: kim500 (19950 in chips)
Seat 6: Cerin Amroth (18057 in chips)
wimpie98: posts the ante 100
Medrakil: posts the ante 100
T_Mar79: posts the ante 100
kim500: posts the ante 100
Cerin Amroth: posts the ante 100
Cerin Amroth: posts small blind 500
wimpie98: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to T_Mar79 [8c 8s]
Medrakil: folds
T_Mar79: raises 1500 to 2500
kim500: calls 2500
Cerin Amroth: folds
wimpie98: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kc 7s 6s]
T_Mar79: ??

check and call his all in.
shove...
check-fold


in that order. Check/raise won't work as he'll be commited by that stage.

With stack sizes I would prefer the opening raise to be larger, 3.5k. If you get shoved on you have to snap. As played, I prefer a bet of about 3/4 pot and again if shoved on I think we still have to call....

It makes no sense to raise more in order to ensure you are pc'd if he shoves, better to leave him as much room as possible to shove worse hands.

I was always calling a shove pre, 2.5 may mean he shoves a touch lighter thinking he can get me off it, so happy with raise size I think... I was expecting shove or fold with his stack, not sure what the flat call means tbh

Not sure either of us are likely to be open shoving the flop given pot is ~7k and we both have ~16k back??

How many people are left in the tournament ? How far off the money are we ?

If we are needing to double up at this point then I vote for check/raise all-in. If we are on the bubble then bet/fold is probably best.

I have the same problem in mtt in these spots with these stacks.. 20 bb's stack with a range of hands (pairs-big aces etc) most of the time the flop is not gonna be ideal so how do u approach it? c-bet folding to a shove sucks. open shoving 20 bigs seems a bit extreme. Help?

Any history here? If he's good he's only peeling here with Aces or Kings and maybe Queens.

As played I either lead/fold or lead/shove villian dependant.

Pre flop play is fine

Hadn't seen him do anything out of the ordinary, ...When you say lead/shove.. you mean lead/call a shove?? Would need a pretty good read he was capable of bluff shoving, no??

Agree he should only be calling big hands here

I also think you should raise more pre, I mean not generally at 500/1000, but in this specific situation yes. The strength of your hand is pre-flop and you should play to that strength imo. Increasing the raise size to 3.5k gives you a better chance of taking the pot down uncontested & adding a good 10% to your stack. Considering you will call a jam anyway why does it matter? Because a villain with a hand jams a 2.5k raise but not a 3.5k raise? Nah, I don't think that's true. You could argue the more monies in the pot and the hmmm bigger raise will actually encourage worse to jam more often with these stacks.

If your hand plays better pre then offering the bb 3/1 to see a flop isn't what you want to be doing imo. You also set up a perfect jamming opportunity for your oppos post flop. If you now bet 4k into 7k then your oppo can jam circa 17k into 12k with a wide variety of hands and have a positive expectation. Because this is true I prob bet and call a jam...but it's very much dependant on the villain and villain's perception of you. Raising 2.5k sets you up for a lot of awkward decisions post flop...and hey presto here it is.

check.  maybe call 1 street, maybe call 2 streets depends on timing of bets, previous play, villian's nationality and most of all how far on tilt you are.

PFR is perfect, mantis 88 plays well post flop.

As played bet then call shove or check/shove either is fine.

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Raise pre is fine, bet call now.

In Gus Hansen's book Every Hand Revealed a reoccurring theme whilst shipping the 2007 Aussie Millions is the fact he raises 3.5xbb with medium pairs. Let's take a quote from him when he picks up 8-8 shorthanded. "There is no doubt in my mind that medium pairs play much better pre-flop than post-flop. Apart from the 1 in 8 where you actually flop a set you will be facing overcards in 7 out of 8 instances, making it almost impossible to know how to proceed." In T-Mar's example we are merely 5-handed and there is just 1 over-card...and we're not really sure how to proceed.

Now I've read this book a couple of times and have noticed with interest how he never raises 2.5xbb with medium pairs and how he doesn't share your opinions about how easy 8-8 is to play post James. So I reckon I'll side with him rather than the internet kids for the time being. Also good post trigg.

Although Hansen is a top class player..them internet kidz put in crazy volumes and this is an online tourney...not a live one.

I'd go with the kidz depending on how the table has been playing (if everyone calls everything unless it's raised big I'd raise big but if the table plays standard 2.5 times is fine...if you only get one caller odds are he's going to miss the flop anyways.)

Offering the bb 3/1 is a mistake imo. Post you're prob gonna end up guessing. In this hand if villain ships we are guessing. Yep, he may well miss...but he doesn't need to hit to win...especially if our strat is to guess.

my post was more helpful on this hand than yours. Mine was merley telling everyone reading to discount the shit you wrote in yours

Why is raising 3.5xbb with 8-8 in this spot is so shit big man?

the fact you change your opening raise depending on your holdings makes the play fundamentally terrible and so transparent. "oh its that mantis (or is it gus hansen) raising 3.5x with his medium pairs. he was opening 2.5x with AA earlier

so true- all donks 2* with suited connectors- 3* it with aces and 4* it with JJ and 8* it with 33

Cos who wants to see a flop with 33?

That's the only reason you think it's shit? That's it? Cos if you do...I pick up A-A and raise 3.5xbb vs you...cos you're such a wise player...& you ship vs my medium pair. gg trigg.

not really because you and gus wouldnt open AA to 3.5* only mid pairs.

if i think you have a medium pair and have a stack to shove, its pretty likely i shove whatever the fk i think you have, poker is a game of stack sizes and ranges, not specific isolated incidents like 1 hand from the aussie millions where gus, who has played less tournies than chrisswan says 3.5xing is best.

Sorry dude, but if you do actually vary your raise sizes with lots of different types of holdings your point is redundant cos it's just as effective as keeping it uniform.

In fact sorry it's much more effective because you get the insightful players "knowing" what you have and reacting in the way you hoped they would.

cba to argue over this. Your so objective there isnt much point.

I don't want to argue about it either tbh. You came on and said I did a shit post and I asked you why. You trotted out the uniform bet theory like it was some kind of zomg hidden strat gem I'd never considered. I used to uniform bet. There are lots of reasons not to uniform bet...eg bb defends light vs bigger raises...why raise less with A-A for uniform effect?

I think bet call gets the money in best and give him some pseudo fe with ur betsizing. risk of him checking back and us seeing a probably shite turn this shallow aint ideal.

Correction, your not sure.


Obviously it plays best pre but still plays good post.

I've not read the book but i am guessing he aint playing this shallow.

I'm happy with pre flop raise size - I had been raising 2.5x for last couple of levels and dont see a need to change that here tbh - I had 2 20bb stacks behind me, that are likely waiting for resteal opps, so want to give impression they have FE (obv I'm calling a shove pre).

I actually went for c/r ai on flop, thinking that Kx made up a small part of his range and I get an extra bet out of him when he has air, but maybe I could induce a shove by leading... Seems most of you would take that line

cheers for answers, something to think about

Preflop raise is awful imo, should have raised 2.55 or maybe 2.45. Defo not 2.5 though