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fancy doing this, dickhead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8143783.stm

I imagine it can be really stressfull being a teacher but how can it get to the point where you try and batter loads of kids to death, what a mug.

Not looking good for the kid im afraid. Unbelievable a teacher can snap to do this.
http://www.orange.co.uk/news/topstories/1584.htm?linkfrom=hp3&link=hero_pos_1_link_subtitle&article=090710x0830x1heronewsattackedpupilinfightforlife

The local papers seem to be stating that he has been off ill lately after having a stroke....maybe this has contributed to his alleged poor state of mind.

Of course no excuse for this, but it is also claimed the kids were winding him up and he just flipped.

"A leafleting campaign supporting Mr Harvey is planned outside the school.
The leafleting is expected to start at 1530 BST outside the school grounds".

this seems wrong to me, i hope the kid is alright but if he isnt i'd do my nut if i was his dad and some people were handing out leaflets supporting the guy.

To be honest I'm surprised things like this don't happen more often. Some kids are right arseholes and will happily terrorise a teacher they perceive as weak safe in the knowledge that there will be no comeback for them.

I love the levels of tolerance and understanding that are shown to all in this little online community.

It's a shocking thing that has happened, but maybe we'll understand it a little better when we hear the full story....

I'm no fan of the Mail, but there seems to be more background here than in the BBC's very sanitised version
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1198469/Ticking-timebomb-teacher-faced-Michael-Jackson-taunts-classroom-attack-boy-14.html

Agreed, very suprised this hasn't happened before.  Would be interesting to know how many teachers are off with stress related illnesses these days.

Only a matter of time before something like this happened I'm afraid. All the rules in school have gone too far in favour of the kids to the point where they can take the piss out of the teachers and wind them up knowing little or no action can be taken against them.

I thought about being a teacher at one point, the only reason I didn't is I knew it would only be a matter of time before I gave someone a slap and probably lose my job as a result.

of course kids are arseholes, theyre kids.

49 year olds are supposed to know not to be arseholes that try to batter kids to death.

The guys an obv nut job and should never have been allowed back to work after his stroke.

I can see people being understanding if he lost his rag and slapped the kid round the head in a temper or something like that, but to purposfully drag the kid(and he is just a child) to the back room whilst fighting off others then hitting him round the head with a metal weight trying to kill him makes him a complete prick in my book.

i'd be at those school gates where they were handing out the leaflets supporting the teacher and stuffing them down peoples throats if that was my boy lying in hospital fighting for his life.

If may have been the kid and his mates that caused the stress and stoke causing him to go off sick in the first place?

aaaaahhhhh, o.k, did'nt think of that, probably o.k for a 49 year old man to try and kill and 14 year old school boy by battering him to death then.

he wont do it again will he? i mean the kid taking the piss out of the sick teacher.

Not if he dies no.

it's way too soon to be making jokes about this.

It's also way too soon to be judging anyone over it.

Let's just focus on praying/hoping/wishing for the lad to recover

Sorry dude, this is obviously an extreme case. I'm just trying to get the point across that the laws in place favour the children too much and should do more the help the teachers who are doing a great job most of the time only to have it buggered up by fuckwit kids.

I've not read the stories because I can't be arsed but my view on this is:

If the teacher has reported the issue to other's including the parents and made people aware of the abuse he is suffering at their hands but it has continued then tough to the kid. If the parents haven't sorted their kid out then it deserves to get a whack. If the teacher's superiors haven't given him help then they deserve a whack for not putting him on stress leave or similar.

If on the other hand the teacher has kept this bottled up and then finally exploded smashing a kid's head in then he should be shot. Twat.

If I was a parent and was told that my kid had been abusing a teacher I'd have to sort the kid out. If the teacher then whacked my kid because he'd carried on I'd be mighty pissed off but would probably understand why it had happened. Not excusing it obviously just understanding why.

If I had not been told anything though and my kid had been whacked I would be searching for the stressed teacher and showing him what stress really was.

But making jokes and judging people I don't know is what I come here for.

The teacher should obviously have arranged to fight the kid outside the school gates, so the other kids and teachers could stand around in a circle chanting 'FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT'. Then we could have watched the mobile phone footage on YouTube.

FYP

I remember the early days of my lil sis starting off teaching primary school kids, she would invariably come home in floods of tears after being treated similarly. Ok you don't go around attempting to murder your pupils, looks terrible on the CV for one thing, but the spirit of the kids was probably 'This is fun, we know it makes him feel like shit, he's probably unsteady already, but WTF can he ever do about it?' If the victim (hope he gets a full recovery) was part of it, then sure he didn't deserve it, but probably wouldn't have been so brazen if he knew this was coming. Ok they'll.  behave like that to the teacher, but not quite so brazen to the 18 year old chavs hanging out on the street corner?
Very bad day when a teacher carries out such an action but very very stressful job in some schools and when you take someone sufficiently vulnerable they'll probably crack. Any kid in that class who continued the jibes has blood on their hands. Would the teacher have gone about attacking kids in another environment? Doubt it.

so you would condemn violence, with more violence ?

yeah i'd really givie a shit about morality and hypocrisy with my child in hospital fighting for his life.

I dont really condemn violence tbh, though i do condemn adults that hurt women, children and people of vulnerability.

good post from G1BTW

None of us know whats really happened here, and the papers are never going to tell you too much.

Why would there be a leafleting campaign if there wasnt a huge amount of background to this?

I honestly cant believe it doesnt happen more often. I think in the future it will happen more and more.

So many kids are out of hand, they have no respect for anything and wont think twice about violently attacking a teacher, tell theyre parents and the teacher is always going to be in the wrong. The parents have no idea what their kid is like because they have more important things in to worry about.

No idea but what really happened here, but then pretty sure a lot of people on here don't know what Mansfield is like  :D

cctv in classrooms ftw

and gym lockers..just in case (and only in universities and only in the women's locker rooms..just so they stay safe of course.)

There are some inner city schools that have implemented this and I believe it is common place in the US. Having taught myself for a couple of years, this was bound to happen at some point. I have witnessed enough incidents of kids hitting out at teachers, that eventually the boot would be on the other foot.

FYP

Dont want know elderly CCTV footage oh bold one.
Any bets this weekend apart from me getting arrested?

yeah will confirm tonight mate :)

its easy to read the story and say "what a twat" but to flip and do this, the guy is clearly no longer mentally stable.

My uncle is a senior school teacher, and a few years ago was working in a pretty rough school in Southwark.  He was repeatedly verbally and physically abused, including being spat at and being punched by a pupil, yet there was no support mechanism for teachers in place to enable them to deal effectively with that kind of behaviour, and it pretty much went unpunished.  In the end, he had enough, and moved to the states where he now teaches at a private catholic school.  He says it's like a different world, the kids are well behaved, respectful and want to learn and he now gets lots out of his vocation. (although I accept that is probably more down to the type of school than the geography).

It's a shame, because he's a great teacher, and one that has been lost to the British education system because teachers aren't given the tools to properly teach and discpline children over here.

This story is very sad from every angle, for the child and his family, for the teacher and his, and that things had been allowed to get to this point without anything being done to tackle the surrounding problems.  I hope that lessons will be learned.

whether this is the case or not, everyone, no matter how mentally stable or usually placid, will have their tipping point I think.  In situations like this the key is ensuring that everyone can work together to ensure that teachers don't get pushed past that point.  We don't know all the details in this case, but I'd be surprised if other people connected with the school were unaware of the issues before this unfortunate incident came to pass. 

good posts. Maybe there will be litigation against the school in this instance for letting a known vulnerable be re-exposed to this situation. Imagine someone like a doctor or a ticket inspector were regularly exposed to this kind of thing, the courts would be full of compensation cases.
I was reminiscing with my ma recently about an old friend, who was a teacher at my primary school. Much admired by all, my mum pointed out. And she was, a talented woman, who rose fast within her profession. Ma was a bit shocked when I pointed out that she had a temper from hell and would be fantastically violent to kids in assembly. I remember some kid, about 10 was playing up, she just dragged him up to the front, by his hair, and shook the living daylights out of him. Got me thinking about all of my schooling lol, it was actually littered with violent incidents of this kind. I once stepped out of line in primary school, was asked to come to the front by the teacher, who removed a large kind of solid leather covered weapon from his jacket, and proceeded to smash it as hard as he could into the palms of my hands. I was 11 ffs, committed a minor offence, and yet routine acts of violence to kids like this were perfectly permissable, and quite commonplace. We seem to have turned a corner as a society and hopefully look back on this kind of thing with rightful horror. Maybe the teacher in question was brought up in such a culture, just reached for a weight instead of a ferula.
Not really making a point I guess, just amuses me how it was once permissable and now we would imprison these people. I often feel like suing the bastards, but I guess the law was on their side at the time.

yep that's one way of looking at it.  The other (more preferable way to my mind) would be to ensure that the environment in which the teacher was placed was more controlled than it obviously was and that the kids learned to behave themselves and not treat teachers in the manner in which it appears they were.

Why an otherwise talented teacher should be prevented from doing a good job because a bunch of kids can't be taught how to properly behave themselves and respect other human beings does not seem to me to be addressing the real problem.

he's been charged with attempted murder tonight,  he hasnt been sectioned, so it seems he just got pissed off and decided to smash a kids head in.

plenty people get pissed off, bullied, tormented and teased everyday, they dont go around trying to kill kids.

this makes the guy a prick IMO.

quite surprised to read that, I thought there had to be some element of pre-meditation for a murder or attempted murder charge to be applied.  Or am I just making that up in my head?

he dragged the kid in a headlock to the store room whilst making sure no one stopped him by fighting off other pupils whilst shouting: "someones going to die" then delibretly beat him round the head with a metal weight, sounds like he knew what he wanted to do.

I think you're thinking about it being a period of time inbetween the thought of doing it and carrying out the act? It doesnt make any difference, if someone called me a wanker in the street and i stabbed him to death instantly theres no difference(assuming i didnt fear for my own safety at the time) than if i went home thought about it all night and decided to kill him when i saw him next.

Doesn't really need to be pre-meditation as far as I know, you can be choosing to recklessly ignore the fact that your actions are likely to lead to him becoming dead.
Did he intend to kill him? Well he allegedly intended to hit him over the head with a 2kg weight, which is an action most people would know could easily cause death.

He wont go down for long, easy to get off with his stress, stroke and mental state..temp insanity easily.

I'd love to see some change, some legislation that helps teachers keep order in classrooms, gives them a bit of support.

Would be a little worried if it happens because of this incident though. Kinda sends the wrong message for people in any field who want things to change.

[  ] Write letter to MP
[  ] Lobby the government.
[  ] Muster popular support amongst colleagues
[  ] Muster popular support amongst public
[  ] Make a website/Start a petition
[  ] Contact newspaper
[  ] Contact your Union
[  ] Industrial action
[ x ] Whack a kid in the head with a bit of metal.

Way the world works I guess. Nobody wants to talk about issues that effect the quality of our kid's education normally, just when sexy violence is involved.

more coming?  ::)

I'm done

It's a crying shame that something like this happened IMO...but seriously..a guy talking to "the voices in his head" in the corridor should not be teaching...and pestering him is also probably a bad idea.









As is corporal punishment.

when i was about 12 a kid two years above me beat up a teacher in a corridor for bumping into him, he punched him to the ground then kicked the teacher in the head before walking away he spat on him.  His punishment - suspension from school and a police caution...

and did the kid get in trouble?

he got booted out of school and got a slap on the wrist, dont get me wrong what the teacher did is fking unreal

nope the guy didnt get remanded to a mental health unit or anything,  just jail, i'm sure after four days of interviews and assessment's the authorities couldve determined if he was mentally ill or not and theres been no mention of it.

look, i dont mind bashing people over the head with metal, sometimes in life shit happends, but this guy, a 49 year old, in charge of children, entrusted with the responsibility of looking after and educating them got pissed off and couldnt control himself.

plenty people get pissed off and lose control, i'm not saying it doesnt happen but if a 32 year old bashes a 25 year old to death because he was pissing him off them thats up to them but when a 49 year old attacks and tries to kill a 14 year old child for whom he was responsible at the time then that makes him a tosser and a complete fucking coward in my book

Not that i would wish to condone teachers carrying leather weapons to smack kids around with, but in years past the teachers wouldnt have had to deal with the crap that the kids can get away with now.

its gone to far the other way now and the teachers dont have any power at all and the kids know it. IWe need to go back a bit and find some middle ground to allow the teachers to dish out some discipline. As a parent, if my son was out of order i would have no problem with him getting the cane across the backside to teach him a lesson.

The teacher fails as a teacher because part of his remit is to educate young adults about appropriate life behaviour. So a good teacher should have the skills to diffuse a petty situation involving cheeky kids by using his wit, humour, logic, whatever...but certainly not his fists or gym equipment. Poor example to set imo. However, the teacher doesn't fail completely, he taught the lad that unexpected violence could be a realistic consequence of tormenting the wrong person. That's not a bad lesson to learn for today's nutter infested world.

I feel sorry for the teacher.  I can't imagine him just losing it and attacking the Kid if he wasn't provoked, everyone can snap.  I am sure the Kid is a scumbag and as a result the poor guys life is ruined.  It really is sad for this guy. 

;dingdell;

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool sark you are a lunatic

wtf does it matter if he was provoked?

he is a teahcer, he has a duty of care and a resbonsibility to look after this child, he's been entrusted with the care of someones child and done this?

lets say he was provoked like you say sark and that this child is a scumbbag, im gonna concede that for the sake of this argument, is it fair that this 14 year old child in gravely ill in hospital now fighting for his life with a fractured scull and bleeding into his brain.

what did this kid do? this child to deserve that?

rape a child maybe................no

kill and mug and old lady?.............................MO

maybe he stabbed to death an inocent fellow pupil....................NO

Infact the reason this child is bleeding into his brain is retrebution for the wrost of crimes,yes,........................................PROVOKING A TEACHER!!!! what a peice of shit kid a? lets hope he dies a?

what fucking parallell universe are you lot living in when its ok to fracture a childs scull cos he winds you up?

Like I said ,  he clearly snapped.  It can happen to anyone.  In this case, a tragic thing happened.  We don't know the full story,  if this man had mental problems, he should be given help and not treated like some evil killer.  Hopefully the Kid will recover and get back to full health.  I feel sorry for the teacher, it is a stressful occupation and often they are put in positions by certain pupils that may lead to them losing their cool.  In this case, his lack of emotional control led to something bad happening.  I feel sympathy for the teacher as well as the Kid.

Like everyone else, I wish this hadn't happened and also I want the kid to get better.  However, regardless of who you are ,  it is impossible not the lose your cool eventually if we are provoked.  I was wrong to say the kid was a scumbag, he may be a model pupil and has never been in trouble.  However for this example, lets just say the Kid was a trouble maker and was regularly in trouble.   He may have just pushed things too far and the teacher reacted at a time when he was emotionally vulnerable.  When most people snap, they may shout or curse at the person involved. In this case , things obviously took a more serious and tragic turn.  It is too quick to paint the teacher as some psycho who regularly does things like this.  He has a mental illness clearly and needs help rather than no sympathy. 

and it's my contention that he doesnt have a mental illness, he's been remanded in jail not sectioned and theres been no mention of it, everyone just keeps on assuming he is, i'm saying the facts from what has been done by the police and judicery suggest he isnt mentally ill, maybe he is just a prick that lost his temper?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=42961.msg1004705#msg1004705

if he's not mentally ill then theres no difference between him and ***** that shake babies to death because they get so angry and cant take the incescent crying any more.

I'm not saying people cant snap sark, that they cant get pissed off, they can and it goes happen and when it happends between two adults then to me its much of a muchness but when you snap with a child you cross the line in my book and become a piece of shit.

There's no suggestion of mental illness. From all available evidence he just completely lost his temper. Basicallly, what Bolt said.

Ok,  I agree he shouldn't have lost his temper.  It is easy to say, but sometimes hard to do.  I never lose my cool, not even a angry thought, I usually count to ten and then change the subject, etc if I am feeling negative.

 I have a friend who is the nicest guy you could ever meet, recently he was involved in an incident that changed everyones view of him as a popular and likable guy.  I wont go into full details, but basically he hit his girlfriend in a moment of madness.  She made a comment about a child of his that had died in a disrespectfull way, this wasn't the first hurtfull comment she had made.  He was drunk and snapped. As a result, he was sacked and now has a criminal record meaning he cannot take up a job promotion in Australia he was due to take this summer. His previous good guy image is now gone.  A split second of uncontrolled thoughts have ruined his life.  He regrets it and wishes he could take it back. 

The very fact that some of the teachers previous pupils are showing their support shows this mans character. 

If he had made a sustained attempt to kill her then it would be a viable comparison.

lol at attacking the teacher in this thread like its the most important thing in the world. He lost the plot, like most of this thread.

When someone suffers years of verbal or physical abuse and turn on the persons/person responsible for it in fit of rage and lose it for a short time, that is legal defence in court..Hence why so many women who do their partners in get off with it.

[X] True

[ ] Classed as Mental illness

The massive difference in this case and it is a huge difference, is that he tried to kill a child. You see the law quite rightly views children very differently to adults. His crime based on all the evidence that has been made available to the public at this stage is indefensible.

Easy preventative measure for the future: If the teachers can't count to ten then don't employ them.

Thinking back on school days i'm surprised more than one teacher didn't try to kick my head in.

Wow,

How did i miss this one.

I work in a school as a college Lecturer teaching Construction and the Built Environment, and i am glad this issue as been raised. It is well overdue. ( No i don't teach English so shhhhhhhh :( )

Of course this is wrong, no sane person could say differently, but am i surprised, ROFL, LMAO hell noooooooooooooooooo.
It was only a question of when and by whom. I see staff "ABUSED" on a daily basis.  I personally have been struck by a student, been verbally abused and have had  items stolen from me.  I go to work shortly and if you wish i could post what happens today at school and i will cast iron guarantee you i will easily be able to demonstrate abuse.

When i read of the incident and the lead up to it, i could identify with that daily routine, the man cracked up, plain and simple.  The comments raised by his previous students tell you all you need to know about his character. He/We get no support from Management and the parents, like in this case, believe little Johny to be angel ROFL. I would happily hand out flyers and debate with those that want to pop in for a chat to say we shouldn't.

I have also voiced support for CCTV previously, i have nothing to hide film me every day, No Ofsted required, no lesson observation and parents can see Johny being an Angel at any time of the day.  I have infact told my students that we have CCTV, and sometimes i address the child's parents in this imaginary CCTV ( alking to myself in a corridor syndrome hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm). asking Mum and Dad if they are ok with Johnny's choice of Vocabulary! etc.

I have long been saying to my colleagues that it only  a matter of time before one of us Formal report to the Police of the abuse we receive, maybe this sorry incident will get this topic the publicity it needs.

Sigh, now i am depressed and not looking forward to another day of abuse. I am one of the lucky ones, i am an ex Royal Engineer Sergeant Major and i am strong, firm and friendly and i suffer a lot less than my nicer gentler workmates.

Any way how's the poker :)


Steve

Diary of a teacher...(in a non-porn sort of way)....interesting...go on then Steve!

Isn't it up to the court to determine his state of mind at the time during the case?  The prosecution service might charge him with murder, but it's up to a judge and jury to determine the sentence based on the evidence supplied.

what i'm saying is the judge remanded him to jail, he's never getting bail obv but the judge wouldve been directed by the prosecution to have him detained in a mental health unit instead if he had had a mental breakdown, you cant send people who have mental problems to the extent of a breakdown to prison.

temporary insanity is a different thing, plausible and i'm probably sure its the way he'll go at trial but not having been sectioned or remanded to a mental health unit doesent really help that cause.

I dont know the intricices(medical or legal) of temporary insanity but ive got a rough idea and from what i understand about it it's still no excuse or absolution for what he did.

where is robert? he knows about this stuff.

He won't be reprimanded under the mental health act if there weren't previous medical decisions on this.  He might plead temporary insanity, but he'd still be held in a normal facility until the trial sentencing.

temporary insanity n. in a criminal prosecution, a defense by the accused that he/she was briefly insane at the time the crime was committed and therefore was incapable of knowing the nature of his/her alleged criminal act. Temporary insanity is claimed as a defense whether or not the accused is mentally stable at the time of trial. One difficulty with a temporary insanity defense is the problem of proof, since any examination by psychiatrists had to be after the fact, so the only evidence must be the conduct of the accused immediately before or after the crime. It is similar to the defenses of "diminished capacity" to understand one's own actions, the so-called "twinky defense," the "abuse excuse," "heat of passion," and other claims of mental disturbance which raise the issue of criminal intent based on modern psychiatry and/or sociology. However, mental derangement at the time of an abrupt crime, such as a sudden attack or crime of passion, can be a valid defense, or at least show lack of premeditation to reduce the degree of the crime

that is for sure not true, i'm 100% about that.

just because he hasent been flagged by the system before why does that matter, what if it turns out he has schizophrenia and they thought he did but just put him on remand and he killed 5 other inmates? or if he had had a complete breakdown in it's truest sense he wouoldn t be able to function, he'd be a wreck and would need continual medical care and supervision, he physically couldnt go to prison.

there are a lot of cases where i imagine the committing of a crime is the first notification the state has of someone with a mental illness, you cant just cart those people off to prison just because they dont seem to have any histroy of mental illness, think how much worse they'd get.

He would've 100% seen mental health workes and doctors when he was detained and they wouldve assessed whether or not he was fit to be remanded to prison or if he was severely unwell and should be detained under the mental health act.

If someone is running round the street naked climbing up trees and throwing excrement at passes by that guy is gonna get detained under the mental health act, they not gonna care if it's his first time or not, if he's got any mental history or who he is, that's the procedures they follow.

cant say I agree with this Alex,the cane does absolutely nothing 99% of the time,i was forever getting the cane at school fk me i got 6 stripes then followed with another 6 cos i laughed when 1 of the other boys was hollering and jumping around the headmasters office like a banshee,

I would say that i would have got the cane around a dozen times whilst at school and I never thought once that after i had had it i wouldn't do what I had just done to deserve it again.

What they should have done is taken away the things that i enjoyed doing like playing in all the school sports teams PE running etc, but no not once did they do this as the cane was a quicker alternative.I mean getting the cane was better than getting a detention,a 5 minute bollocking then outta there.
The kids of today do seem to have too much of an easy ride when it comes to being disciplined and exactly how will they learn from this?

whats the answer who knows?

Obv the kid in this incident whatever he done/said did not warrant this type of reaction,but the teacher would have just flipped red mist came down and lost it big time.That can happen to anyone at any time its just very unfortunate that he was a teacher,

 the school/education authority should have assessed him better before returning him to the classroom.

he will get charged with attempted murder but will plea temporary insanity or whatever when it goes to trial as this was not premeditated.

All obv IMO

exactly the same thing happends when someone gets pissed of with a baby cia, "the red mist comes down" and they "flip out" and shake the baby to death or throw it across the room, no one says "ah well the red mist came down, they just lost it, it happends", everyone calls them disgusting child killers, why is this different?

I am not saying it is any different,what i was saying was i can understand why it happened,obv the same principle applies to the kiddie killers but then more often than not its social services that fail the child just like in this case the authorities allowed this to happen,but who knows what checking procedures they have in place?

Babies don't know the difference between right & wrong, they don't cry to provoke a reaction, they don't cry to be malicious, they just cry instinctively with no thought and no concept of consequence. On the other hand a teenager knows tormenting another person will make that person feel bad, the insults are designed to provoke a response, there is malice in it. So it's very different. Somebody reacting negatively to the innocence of a baby's cry isn't near somebody reacting negatively to conscious & orchestrated malice from a young adult.

You could offer me £60,000 a year to teach in the secondary school I went to and I'd probably turn it down. The amount of abuse teachers have to put up with is just ridiculous.

lol true, i used to teach at Thomas Danby college, where most of the students were from chapletown lol, if you showed weakeness you was gonna get pwned so bad. My tactic was to take them aside alone and threaten them :) my classes went well after that!

I remember  at uni once if you spoke in a lecture you got shoe thrown at you, aka boyle 1998 :)

If you go to baby sit a baby you know it's going to cry, if you're going to be a teacher you know the kids are going to be kids, malicious, arseholes, whatever you want to call them, you're in a position of responsibility for a child, you're supposed to be impervious to provocation, sort of comes with the gig when you're looking after minors in any capacity.

I'm saying the point is it doesnt matter, you're saying then that if the provecation is intentional it matters? from which you can infer that a crying baby doesnt deserve it because it doesnt mean to be irritating but a schoolboy who clearly means to be irritating deserves to get his head bashed in, i dont see how whatever this kid done short of putting the teacher in immediate fear for his life has any applicability to the outcome.

the way i see it everyone who is banging on about how this kid deserved it, how it's not the teachers fault, how he had it coming, how he provoked him etc are just scared, scared of the hoodies down the road from them, scared of chavs in the highstreet, scared by watching the news and seeing teenage knife crime, scared of reading about gangs, probably scared of their own shadow so when something like this happends they make their judgments about it based on their own fear, a manifestation of their own insecurities and take solace in the idea that one of "these" or "them" has finally got a taste of their own medicine, pathetic really, pathetic that people can be that terrified in their own life that theyre happy to let a 49 year old man batter a child to near death to lament their own vicarious retrebution,sad.

Erm no one is saying the teacher was right to clobber unruly, naughty, misbehaving teenagers, but you have to recognise that there are factors around the incident that means its understandable it happened.

Rightly or wrongly you can see both sides of the argument. Making frankly absurd comparisons between baby sitting and teenagers systematically winding up teachers that SHOULD know better is illogical.

The system gives way to much protection to the students these days, teachers feel vunerable and exposed. Often threats, abuse, physical attacks take place across the country and the action taken against the young adults is zilch, yeah your expelled, woop de woo. Hopefully if anything postive can come out of this is that teachers can snap when mentally abused every working day of their lifes, they are human.





 

Like acid said i don't think any1 is condoning what happened but rather that it is understandable due to the circumstances why it happened

definitely not acceptable though

The strength of the reaction was inappropriate, agreed. However, the kid is in actual fact the bully here....so he is the scared/insecure one in reality. You tend to find with bullies that when they're in groups they give it large...but lose their balls when they don't have their friends around. In the classroom the kid can emotionally abuse his teacher in apparent safety...surrounded by his friends and protected by his status as the minor...but he's still a bully, and he's using this protection to vilify another person. The age smudges that vilification so you think teenagers aren't responsible for their actions and don't know what they're saying. I respect kids more than to say that. So I think the kid prob deserves a slap, but that's it, and not from teach.

Yesterday, a student refused to get out of a free  standing staionery cupboard, when the lecturer knocked it to get his attention, the told the lecturer that he had hurt his ears with the sound and that he better not do do again "you fucking idiot".  When the lecturer continued to take control of the sitation, the student stormed out kicked a metal locker and threw a chair across the room.  He went home, mum rang in to say he was a little tense and wouldn't be in the next day.  Reports filed i will update when i have the results.

Interestingly enough, this student had recently come back from 2 trips, given to him as confidence boosters. 5 days ai Eurodisney, and last week just back from 6 days ai Dubai visit, during which he was given £30 a day sending money.  MBN


Today:
A student late to my lesson today, i of course challanged him he called my a sarky  bastard and why do i always go on and that i should Fuck off. I give him a verbal bashing as only i can and he then worked nicely for the next 2 hrs.

Just another day in the office.

Steve

what are the points of these stories?

I cannot believe this - what is wrong with this country!  Our taxes are paying to make this country soft!

There is no respect in this world.  To be honest I feel a bit of compassion for that teacher as he had been very ill and most probably went back to work too soon.  He most probably flipped, I don't condone what he did but can fully understand it.

I do not agree with cameras everywhere, but in the classrooms and all through schools, this way it does not only safeguard the children's rights but also the staff.  I think this would also bring about more discipline in the schools and save money on soft-soaping kids on free trips and goodies!

I responded to Blondie, i think it was, who indicated an interest..   Not stories, real life.


Steve

Boldie, sorry sir.

you can assume i understood that they happend.

Are you a teacher? I really hope not, what chance have the kids got with a reactionary like you in charge.

Nooooooo! No more cameras, please! We need society to change attitudes. Lose the law suit culture. Bring back respect, and a strong sense of community.

Cameras are a very good idea.

Not only will they help protect kids from teachers and teachers from kids but selling the funny clips to You've Been Framed would provide an additional revenue stream.

never happen

as a society we're to far gone, at least the jocks have still got a sense of national pride, MBN, whats England got?  millionare rapist footballers, facebook, Jordan and peter and bigbrother, that sums up the country, why have we immersed ourself in disposable celebrity culture? because we're not allowed to celebrate English culture or heritage because it's racist obv.

I kinda agree with all the old folk when they say we need a war to sort this country out but were so far gone can you imagine the internet generation shipping off to take down north korea if ding dong started to kick off, we'd get ruined.

Student dealt with, allowed to work on his own so the Lecturer can not give him grief!



Today:


Disruptive students paid £30 per exam if they come in to sit it.


Additional group of 3 disruptive students "HAVE AGREED"to drop maths and carry out project work in a local wooded area, taxi pick up to and from home and at a wage of  £30 a day each. MBN  Who needs maths.

why on earth are you a teacher when you clearly hate kids?

I think it's more clear that he hates kids who f*ck things up for the other 20-odd kids who are there looking to learn. So %age-wise I think he's more on the liking kids side.

many people hate their jobs after a few years

fair points

Because all kids are twats?

last night we were having a few beers, i was down my mates gaff he had the kids so we were playing football out on the balcony and his gaff is on the 2nd floor and everytime his 5 year old kicked the ball over he had to go and get it, sometimes he was just chucking it over on purpose, anyway he'd been down to get the ball about 5 times and had run himself out from the football, anyway it's about a 30 meter drop to below and he chucked it over again, his dad told him to go get it and with a knackerd look of resignation on his face but completely serious he said "just hang me down", lol.

lol

What a terrible tale.

1) Shoot the teacher.

2) Hope the kid gets better - & behaves properly in futuure.

3) Shoot the kids parents. They probz gave him whatever he wanted because "well, he wanted it". Which is apparently what parents do these days, totally oblivious to the irony, & not knowing the difference between two simple 4 letter words - "want" & "need".

Make no mistake - the problem begins with piss-poor Parenting. Kids need a good slap now & then, from their Parents, & saying "no" now & then helps, which seems to be a difficult word for many Parents. It's sheer child cruelty to spoil kids by giving them what they want, "because they want it", it just stores up problems for when the kid grows up.

You have to solve the root of the problem, & bad parenting is the root cause of poorly-behaved kids. Since when were kids so precious they could not be given a slap, or told "no, you can't"? Since the Country went soft, that's when.

 ;tk;

I dont blame parents for not smacking their kids these days, they dont know if they'll get nicked or not although most of the couples i know still smack their kids.

I dont know what worked on me more when i was Young, getting a smack or being sent to my room, thinking about it probs getting sent to my room which strangely became a completely boring place when i was sent their but would otherwise of my own volition sit in their for hours playing  :)

The whole of society is changing though not just stuff like this, why is it now that kids stab kids, gun crime is rife, old women get mugged, all this turn out whereas 60 years ago (people would still do naughy stuff but within the rules,) you could leave your front door open and all that stuff? ive heard a lot of reasons put forward as to why it's changed so much but whether or not they are correct it'll never be like it was and i really cant imagine society be at a more polarised state from that sort of unified characterized spirit.

why is it now that kids stab kids, gun crime is rife, old women get mugged, all this turn out whereas 60 years ago (people would still do naughy stuff but within the rules,) you could leave your front door open and all that stuff?

Because then, if you had a knife, or a gun, your Dad would find out, & give you a good hiding. Now, more & more, parents abdicate their responsibilities, or turn a blind eye, because it's easier, & avoids a confrontation with their beloved darling lad. If a kid has a knife or gun, it's no good the Parent saying "I never knew" - they SHOULD know, that's parenting, & the responsibility that goes with it. They probz even give them the gun or knife these days. "Her's a good lad, he deserves it".

 

o.k but what i'm saying is that adults just didnt over night think: "fck this parenting game, kids will sort themselfs out", whats happend in say the past 50-60 years to change the attitudes of parents so drastically? people didnt just stop giving a shit or am i wrong and for the most part it's always been this way?

It's just changed - very much - in the last 20 or 30 years. I'm not sure what the catalyst was, though it coincides with the internet age.

There was a movement in the 70's to stand up to authority, reject it for the sake of it, and that coincided with the nonsensical Laws which said pupils could not be caned, & Parents could not slap their kids. Suddenly, kids had "rights" (lol), & it all went downhill from there. 

Niow, Kids rule the world. They are given Mobile 'phones at 7 or 8 years old, the girls wear bras 5 years berfore they need to - "it looks adult" - & they are allowed to waste 6 or 8 hours every day farting about on Facebook or watching TV. Very useful training for the real world.

Give them an allottment, I say, teach them to fend for themselves, & grow greens, carrots, runner beans, spuds, brussel sprouts. Well not brussel sprouts, on reflection.

When did you last hear a Political leader say "we stand for Allotments for kids"? I rest my case.

Two words. Nanny State.

allotments for kids and morris dancing for hoodies

It was the ruination of our society, & a whole generation.

Suddenly, the Government, & Parents, thought it'd be a good idea to protect Children from defeat, from disappointment, from pain, from hurt, from wind in their face, & a little rain in their lives. Even Athletics & Sport was deemed bad - "because there has to be a loser, & that child will be hurting". Oh dear - hurt does not exist in the adult world?

Children were overfed to the point of obesity - which is sheer child cruelty - but not a soul dares criticise that, it's "non-pc". The RSPCA fines you, & takes your dog away from you, if you overfeed it to the point of obesity, you know. Think that one through.....

I watched a programme about schools in Africa the other day. Those African kids would walk miles to school every day and they felt really privileged that they had the opportunity and means to PAY for an education. They seized the chance to better themselves. I suppose the opportunity to get a decent lifestyle for themselves and their families was their motivation. Life is tougher if you don’t succeed in Africa. But in this country you get a pretty cushy lifestyle if you don’t succeed. You automatically get the things these African kids are striving so hard for. You can aspire to fail in this country. It doesn’t matter if you are lazy. You can flop in subjects you don’t like and there are an army of people with beards and cardigans who say you have Attention Deficit Disorder or something. It is a very easy option to life fail in this country, and the problem is you can cause maximum disruption to kids who want to learn. That is more serious than the teach punching the kid imo.

Out of battery and on the motor way, so will read properly at home.

The "Hates kids comments", if that was aimed at me you have never been further from the truth, i love and adore kids.  They live in a open world, and i wish we could go back to simpler times.

If it wasn't aimed at me oops :0(


Steve

Wow this thread has taken off on some tangent since I last read it.

"kids need a good slap now and again"

No they don't. Kids need discipline and to know boundaries.  There are much better ways to teach them right from wrong than by physically hurting them or scaring them. A good parent to me is one that can bring their child up to be a well adjusted adult, who understands the impact of their actions on others.  That's not acheived through a slap.

I don't know the stats, but it wouldn't surprise me at all that if the kids who are behaving like yobs in the classroom in thier teens are the ones whose parents think a slap is the only way to discipline their kids.

I've never smacked my daughter and never will.  If that makes me a piss-poor parent in some people's eyes, then so be it.

 

Well, because you're a parent and I'm not I suspect that you've said what I wanted to say but much more eloquently. Thank **** there's a parent out there that thinks like this, I was beginning to give up hope!

I do agree that a general lack of instilled discipline contributes to unruly kids, like tikay said. However under that heading of 'very bad parenting' I'd put any kind of violence towards kids. Ok hypothetically and in an ideal world there would be a place for a responsible and in-control parent to give a light skelp to a grossly unruly kid in an attempt to shape behaviour. But we don't live in that world, we live in a world where many infuriated parents attempt to mollify their own rage by striking out at their defenceless child. The child (much more insightful than assumed) could have recognised a controlled, disciplining skelp on the bum, but knows this is not what they're getting; they're getting the end result of their parent's out of control anger. Mummy/daddy who is essentially my world, feeds me, rears me, nurtures me, educates me, defends me against harmful outsiders, teaches me how the world works and the best way to go about things; this figure has now assumed a reddened face and clenched fist and is thumping me in the face, and I'm not even quite sure what I did wrong. My world has just crumbled and I'm not sure quite who I can trust/listen to/turn to.
We need more of this to stop unruly kids?  ;carlocitrone;
I am rather proud that at least on paper our generation is looking back in anger on the last one's legacy of legitimized violence towards kids, shaped as ours is by experience and social sciences which demonstrate an insight into just what lasting damage hitting a kid can do.

Simple,

Discipline not violence.
Simple family values.
Schools not forced to achieve "C grades" then they won't have to pass every student and cook the books. 
Good parenting.
The correct student on the correct course.

there's a difference between "hitting" a kid and giving them a smack on the hand.

a 5 year old develops a fascination with sticking things in plug sockets, this is where smacking as a preventative and not punishment is essential imo, the child then correlates putting things in the plug socket with mummy and daddy getting super mad and getting a sharp smack on the hand and therefore ceases to do it.

how else do you accentuate the idea of grave danger to a child to stop them doing something like that in a way that a 5 year old can properly comprehend and appreciate?

Up to a certain age (and a lot younger than 5 imo), you get yourself some of those wotsits that you stick into plug sockets that kids can't remove.  At 5 years old a child is perfectly capable of understanding danger when you explain it to them.  If my daughter started sticking things in plug sockets (she's 6) I'd tell her not to do it or she could get electrocuted.  That should do the trick.  I presume you'd accompany the smack with an explanation, otherwise it would be pointless.  To me, the accompanying smack is the pointless part.

alright that probably wasnt a good example, i mean 2 or 3.

and not just plug sockets obv, other dangerous things that no matter how much you explain to a 2 year old could kill them theyre still gonna do it.

Well, at 2 or 3 years old you should be keeping a close eye on your child anyhow and ensuring that they are not put into dangerous situations.  Keep things that are potentially dangerous out of their reach. It's not difficult.

of course it's difficult, you cant keep your eye on a 2/3 year old 24/7, one of my oldest memories was standing on the chair looking out of the window which i wasnt allowed to do as it was quite high up, it was in my parents room which i wasnt allowed to go in any way and the window could open all the way, it was on a latch but i suppose if i fiddled with it i could get it open, anyway i got a chair and was standing on it and looking out the window and i got almighty smack from my dad, not because he wanted to punish me for being in their room, or that i'd disobeyed him in climbing up to look out of the window but because it was very dangerous and i'd been told several times not to do it, i remembered that smack and NEVER climbed up at the window again, job done IMO, children that age need protecting from themselves, you cant always properly articulate to a child about danger when theyre that age.

I also remember that my dad had a huge old oak cabinet and the top was like a door that swung down, he told me loads of times not to touch it but i didnt listen cos i'm 3/4 or whatever and dont care and it swung down on my finger and nearly cut it off, i'll never forget that pain but i do know that if i had got a smack for the times i played with it before i wouldve never have gone near it again.

I wish my daughter would listen to reason she still has inquisitive fingers at 10 years old and has to touch everything and anything, about 4 years ago we went to a wedding as evening arrived and dusk came they put glass and metal lanterns with little candles in around a set of steps and path that led from the marquee just to light the way.

We automatically said that these lanterns will be very hot and you will get burnt if you touch one to which our daughter nods her head and runs of to carry on playing, it was less than 5 minutes before you could hear the screams.

Even with that shock and pain she still hasn't learnt the lesson and will continue to touch things almost involuntarily just because they are there.

Luckily she's never gone for the electrical sockets

Would giving her a smack stop that though?  When I was around the same age I remember sitting in my bedroom sucking on a live electrical lead because I liked the buzzy feeling on my tongue. Once it took hold and I got an electric shock, I didn't do it again. 

Bolt, in your examples you've highlighted where potentialy dangerous situations existed.  Surely the best way to deal with those situations would have been to make the window secure and remove the dangerous cabinet, or otherwise make it safe?

Of course we can't wrap our kids in cotton wool and accidents will happen, but if we see a potential danger where a child could get hurt, surely removing it is the way forward, not smacking them as some kind of punisment for their natural inquisitiveness.

This has gone off tangent a bit again because I believe Tikay's earlier comments about children needing a good slap were not really aimed at toddlers needing to keep out of danger anyway.

OAP's who troll the internet need a good slap imo

(http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/obvious_troll.jpg)

 ;iagree;  

A parent can be firm without smacking though.  My mother was a WWW2 widow and left with four of us under the  age of 8.  She never ever took her hand to us, her face and control of us were enough.  We grew up without a father figure and we were all well behaved kids at school and out.

I agree it is the parenting

I wasn't questioning wether a smack would stop her it was more just pointing out that explaining things reasonably to some children just isn't going to work i have 2 girls 13 and 10 in age and they are chalk and cheese and whats worked for one in the past misses the younger one totally, beautiful girl she is and loving but my god she knows how to push all the wrong buttons.
 

+ 1

Aged 4, I took my Dad's spare car keys from his bedroom drawer and started reversing his Daf 55 automatic out of the drive - luckily my parents heard the car start up and managed to stop me before I got onto the road.

What makes:

a) a good parent

b) a bad parent

?

A child walks up to a fire and decides it would be fun to put its hand in it. One burn later, and a lot of pain, and we can now be quite happy that the child is never going to do that again. The child now realises that fire + hand in it = pain.

Smacking children is a natural extension to this, where the situation is bad, but has no natural pain mechanism, or a bigger danger we wish to avoid.

My parents smacked me when I misbehaved. The result is you don't want to misbehave because you know you'll get a smack and this hurts. This isn't living in fear of my parents or anything daft like that, it's simply a natural defence mechanism.

Just checked the wikipedia definition of pain, and in the opening section it has: "Pain is part of the body's defense system, triggering a reflex reaction to retract from a painful stimulus, and helps adjust behavior to increase avoidance of that particular harmful situation in the future."

Obviously there's a line to how far parents should be able to go. A hard smack that hurts for a while is fine. Being hit with the poker and having a lasting scar like my uncle is obviously going too far.

nothing wrong in a little smack as long as it is used sparingly,  kids will feel emotionally hurt as well as feel a little pain but they will also realize for their own good they have done something far worse than just being a little naughty, the more you smack and scream at a child the more they will think its you not them, there is a big difference between slapping kids to make them stop doing things that annoy you and a little slap to make them understand they have done somthing which is very wrong

Interesting thread this one and as a newish parent quite enlightening.

Imo the biggest impact on social behaviour over the last 60 years is the massive trend towards having 2 working parents in every family and the reduction that has on quality family time received from by kids for a young age.  Kids are palmed off to nurserys or other places for their care where, while it can of a good standard, they are by law simply not allowed to instil any level of discipline.

Surely this then changes the whole trust/respect relationship which declines as the parents are no longer the main care givers or role models to their own children and parents overcompensate on the reward side through the personal guilt of not providing the care.

Solved

yes i think this accepted by most people as fact but having 1 parent at home all day wouldnt solve the problem what do you do to a child when he has done something dangerous to himself or others and how do you teach a child very bad behaviour to others wont be tollerated.

Well in a lot of way I think it does.

If you as a parent know your child then you know to a greater extent what action you need to take.  Ideally I would see smacking as the absolute last resort once all other avenues have been tried but am definitely not anti smacking as its probably the most effective method of disciplining imo.

I wish i could agree the world would be a far better place to live

If it's the most effective method of disiplining then why leave it as a last resort?

lool.

God Bless byron!

+1. Get in quick with a left hook, shuts them right the **** up.

tut tut, bringing god into it now. you know that's like a

(http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Jobs_and_People/Bullfighters/Bullfighter_2.gif)

to

(http://www.yappari.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Daniel-Phillips.jpg)

I dont look at it as the last resort ,constantly telling a child no thats naughty is fine as long as the child is no danger or putting other children in danger , telling a child not to touch the fire is a different thing, the shock of a very small slap will let the child know it has done something very bad and this is something different from all the other tellings off . i am not saying every time a child is bad you slap the child but a child has to know it has done something serious for its own safety and others safety

(http://theworstpageintheuniverse.com/images/parent_web1.jpg)

the picture is a young boy,there is no need to slap children so old,a young boy that old old would laugh at you if you gave him a little slap for being naughty, slapping children who do not know they are putting themselves in danger ,big difference

[ x ] There may be a place for light slapping of children by parents who are in control and know what lines not to cross and how to go about it.

[ ] The majority of parents have this kind of control and insight.

You can't be serious there?

I reckon it must be a level..it simply has to be (unless he's Tony Blair in disguise)

Round here it seems to be Lidl

Just do what I do ... if you are in a supermarket and someone elses brat is going off on one, twat them with your trolley, its dead easy and always an accident :)