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Full Tilt Poker Game #13535266949: $50,000 Guarantee (98954212), Table 41 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:27:11 ET - 2009/07/21
Seat 1: Mind Yo Bidn3ss (5,470)
Seat 2: Tmay420 (7,135)
Seat 3: sslibby5 (5,990)
Seat 4: TheClaimer (13,415)
Seat 5: Shelack (5,147)
Seat 6: dharma1 (14,182)
Seat 7: sinsta6969 (5,305)
Seat 8: jordankickz (28,595)
Seat 9: mestrefilipe (3,785)
Mind Yo Bidn3ss antes 25
Tmay420 antes 25
sslibby5 antes 25
TheClaimer antes 25
Shelack antes 25
dharma1 antes 25
sinsta6969 antes 25
jordankickz antes 25
mestrefilipe antes 25
mestrefilipe posts the small blind of 150
Mind Yo Bidn3ss posts the big blind of 300
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheClaimer [Ac 6c]
Tmay420 folds
sslibby5 folds
TheClaimer has 15 seconds left to act
TheClaimer raises to 825
Shelack folds
dharma1 folds
sinsta6969 folds
jordankickz calls 825
mestrefilipe has 15 seconds left to act
mestrefilipe folds
Mind Yo Bidn3ss folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah 5h 5d]
TheClaimer checks
jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act
jordankickz checks
*** TURN *** [Ah 5h 5d] [4d]
mestrefilipe has been disconnected
mestrefilipe has reconnected
TheClaimer bets 1,800
jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act
jordankickz calls 1,800
*** RIVER *** [Ah 5h 5d 4d] [6h]
TheClaimer bets 3,300
jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act
jordankickz raises to 25,945, and is all in
TheClaimer has 15 seconds left to act
TheClaimer: ffs
TheClaimer has requested TIME
TheClaimer: what is this
mestrefilipe has been disconnected
mestrefilipe has reconnected
mestrefilipe has been disconnected
mestrefilipe has reconnected

He eithr has the nuts or air imo. I'm leaning towards folding although it's tough to put him on a precise hand aprt from quad fives or 4s full.

Any history? Is he capable of bluffing here knowing you have to fold almost any ace?

Also if I were mestrefilipe i'd be ringing my broadband company

Thats tough!!

does kickz ever jam light here?

I know he quite aggro but always thought he quite abc

fold. this guy has 55. They always take longer when they flop a monster hand, coz they need to workout how to get paid. Also, ppl dont seem to make river bluffs anymore imo

Comedy you highlight guy folding pre....

how was the BB playing?

Could he have flatted AA here to induce the squeeze/jam behind?

I think i fold in this spot - too many hands beat you - but dont know the player like flushy seems too. If he is ABC then its a def fold for me

everyone ok with betting the river to extract value from Ax KK/QQ?

Considering how deep you are is KK/QQ in his calling range pre?

I think against his range check/calling a better line for value? I think if he had AQ/AJ he's going to value bet anyway.

im check calling here

im prob miss value sometimes - and you are letting him name his price - but he is prob only gonna v bet the nuts - so you prob lose the same -

obv if he overshoves im folding - but it also gives him the chance to bet the missed flush

think this a case of being results orientated tho- in all honesty Im probs leading river

I like this line...

the question of value betting the river or not is whether i think he is capable, or will bluf shove the river.

So there's roughly 12.5k in the pot and it's around 7-7.5k to call

So he has to be bluffing/have Ax like 40% of the time for this call to be profitable.

On this basis I wouldn't blame you for calling with the 2 missed flush draws out there, it just seems like a weird spot to bluff shove in this way. It looks more like the nuts. I think our best chance of being ahead is him having AQ rather than a stone-colder...

Imo ... its a clear fold, only hands you beating are marginal hands (77-TT and Ax)  that he has turned into a bluff (if he even does this) and some occasional random bluffs with complete air... must be a v small part of his range though

A load of draws got there which fit his flop check / turn call line

Nothing wrong with betting river I dont think, there are some worse hands that will call, and you can set your own price rather than having to call a bigger bet

Guess its one where you really need a strong read to justify calling, which you may have?

The heart flush got there so only 1 missed flush draw.

I check/call river here. He can float turn here with 2 flush draws out there and look to represent one of them when they hit.

Very tough spot. It looks like his hand is exactly 55 - possibly 44 or 66. There are many more total bluffs that can play the hand this way.

still think bet/folding the river is better than c/c...
if i had a crystal ball i probs c/c, but i think after checking the flop we have to bet the river, our hand is under-repped imo and looks as much like A2 than A6
after checking back the flop, hich makes it a litte more possible that villain is bluff shoving, but i still think this is unlikly.

People saying check call are off their rockers imo, we have the "not non nut" hand if you will, its the best hand you can have that you dont want to get it in with.

Check-call lets many more hands we beat put more money in and we get to see a showdown. We leave ourselves completely exploitable by bet/folding but lose value to what ? Ax usually bets flop when checked to him. 77/88 maybe.

+1 and normally i dont agree with James and all his if you dont want y to happen dont do x but hes spot on here. This hand illustrates relative hand strength, which means without history, he has to be bluffing something like 35-50% (cant be arsed) and i really dont think your average mtt grinder doesnt make such high-variance plays with such frequency.

 There is next to know chance this guy is valuejamming AQ and a slim chance of AK given stack depth and that old chestnut about only getting called by a better hand.

mtt grinders dont rangemerge river jamming ranges, its unneccesary fps.

Nuts or air, i say quads.

those who dont advoctae the check call - and this is a genuine question on a 'learning thread' - i dont get it.

Lets say he bets the 3k on the end and you call and lose - well surely that is better than bet folding the 3k ????? All you can do by bet folding is assume you were beat? - No?

I understand that you are trying to get value from worse - but surely there is as much value in letting him bluff at a missed hand as there is in getting him to call light? Surely the only hand he is calling your bet with is like an AJ AT type hand?

Shit I missed this, that makes it quite a clear fold then for me then...

I see nothing wrong with check calling. Ok we might lose a bit of value from a better Ace, but surely that's countered by the times he takes a stab at the pot?

Leading for value is fine, I just prefer c/c

We have rivered a super strong hand. We want value. Given that we have checked the flop to get value from worse, i think vbet the river is far better than check call and pray he bluffs a busted draw given our hand looks like air a chunk. I have absolutely no problem with bet folding the river. Infact, i think bet folding is a perfectly fine line against standard opposition, unlike a lot of posters here.

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

this is what i am trying to get to - flushy and alex make c/c sound terribad - however the spot seems so marginal how can it be?

You cant call the raise if you bet on the end - but yet you would put the same number of chips in on a check call? I just dont see how bet/folding is a far superior play like it is being made out. I dont have a problem with it (im assuming we think that he never raise bluffs here) - but as for far superior -   i  just cant see it.

Check calling just means you getting value towned a whole lot more (which is worse than folding the best hand a very small % of the time)  I think his  betting range on the river is weighted heavily to hands that beat ours - marginal hands that we beat will check back alot of the time, which is where we miss value by not betting

He's not bluffing often enough for you to have to worry about being blown off the best hand

but if you bet fold you are kinda turning your hand into a bluff - when you have a hand with perfectly good show down value -

so what if it goes check check - too much of a marginal spot to say you lost value if you are prepared to bet fold. There is already a perfectly good pot to scoop

I think villian is checking a lot of his range which is why we want to try and get value out of the hand.

Agree that he never takes this like with a good ace either

Nuts or air.

Shocked if he doesn't have 55 or 44

Save me writing a reply, he isnt betting a lot of Ax on the river, he is however calling it.

If he had a draw i would expect him to have fired the turn.

+1

His calling range is wide, his betting range is v narrow. Against mostl opponents, the risk of being bluffraised on the river is much more insignificant than the enormous reward we get by betting and getting called by worse.

Yeah, you have to bet this river given that you have improved to a hand that can legitimately take two streets of value. And I would have bet with the intention of folding. He can't expect people to fold that river for that amount of chips when they lead there (unless he has specific history with you or is an idiot). As such, he shouldn't be bluffing here. And there shouldn't be anything in his value range that you beat.

He had  Th 9h

taks for your responses, i folded.

I know because he sent me this.

Full Tilt Poker Game #13535266949: $50,000 Guarantee (98954212), Table 41 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:27:11 ET - 2009/07/21
Seat 1: Mind Yo Bidn3ss (5,470)
 Seat 2: Tmay420 (7,135)
 Seat 3: sslibby5 (5,990)
 Seat 4: TheClaimer (13,415)
 Seat 5: Shelack (5,147)
 Seat 6: dharma1 (14,182)
 Seat 7: sinsta6969 (5,305)
 Seat 8: jordankickz (28,595)
 Seat 9: mestrefilipe (3,785)
 Mind Yo Bidn3ss antes 25 Tmay420 antes 25 sslibby5 antes 25 TheClaimer antes 25 Shelack antes 25 dharma1 antes 25 sinsta6969 antes 25 jordankickz antes 25 mestrefilipe antes 25
 mestrefilipe posts the small blind of 150 Mind Yo Bidn3ss posts the big blind of 300
 The button is in seat #8
 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to jordankickz [Th 9h]
 Tmay420 folds sslibby5 folds
TheClaimer has 15 seconds left to act TheClaimer raises to 825
 Shelack folds dharma1 folds sinsta6969 folds
 jordankickz calls 825
 mestrefilipe has 15 seconds left to act mestrefilipe folds Mind Yo Bidn3ss folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah 5h 5d]
 TheClaimer checks jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act jordankickz checks
 *** TURN *** [Ah 5h 5d] [4d]
mestrefilipe has been disconnected mestrefilipe has reconnected
TheClaimer bets 1,800 jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act jordankickz calls 1,800
 *** RIVER *** [Ah 5h 5d 4d] [6h]
 TheClaimer bets 3,300 jordankickz has 15 seconds left to act jordankickz raises to 25,945, and is all in
TheClaimer has 15 seconds left to act
TheClaimer: ffs
TheClaimer has requested
TIME TheClaimer: what is this
 mestrefilipe has been disconnected mestrefilipe has reconnected
TheClaimer: got A6
 mestrefilipe has been disconnected mestrefilipe has reconnected
TheClaimer folds
Uncalled bet of 22,645 returned to jordankickz jordankickz mucks jordankickz wins the pot (12,525)

"ffs what is this" is the best bit of this hand imo.