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Title: SB flops two pair Post by: david3103 on July 22, 2009, 12:37:13 PM £10 FO MTT 5,000 starting stack. 15 runners, no exits yet.
Blinds are 50/100 Last hand of the level, 2 limpers, BB is almost guaranteed to check his option unless he has JJ+ or AQ+ My stack is depleted to 2475, villain has c 5,000. I have 3d 5d and complete as expected I see the flop 3c 5c Aspades I bet 400 fold, fold, call I am as sure as I can be that the caller has an Ace, kicker below a Q since he limped into an opened pot and is calling now. He may have two clubs, but I doubt it. If he had A 3, or A5 he'd raise. Turn is Jh Me? Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: daviebhoy on July 22, 2009, 12:54:09 PM Stacks mean you only need to bet about 800 and you can put the rest in on the river. Snap a turn shove obviously.
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: GreekStein on July 22, 2009, 12:58:25 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: kukushkin88 on July 22, 2009, 01:19:50 PM Lead turn, shove river. You will get value out of a weak ace and and pp's. If you check he will most likely check behind with any weak ace or small pp and you miss a ton of value.
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MC on July 22, 2009, 03:09:04 PM Stacks mean you only need to bet about 800 and you can put the rest in on the river. Snap a turn shove obviously. ^^this Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: AlexMartin on July 22, 2009, 03:41:24 PM Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex.
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: kukushkin88 on July 22, 2009, 04:21:19 PM Alex I know it's been a few years since you played a £10 freezeout, he really doesn't bet almost his whole range if you check to him on the turn. Most players check behind all weak aces and pocket pairs which represent the huge majority of his range.
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: GreekStein on July 22, 2009, 04:34:10 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: david3103 on July 22, 2009, 05:18:55 PM I led out for 700
he called, .................... eventually River was Ad Now what? Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: EvilPie on July 22, 2009, 05:37:05 PM Open fold.
Do not put any more money in to this pot. This is THE worst possible card for you. You are not going to win this pot now unless you fancy a bluff. Personally I wouldn't in this spot. UL. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: outragous76 on July 22, 2009, 05:37:47 PM well your hand is dead
hope he checks total air Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: daviebhoy on July 22, 2009, 05:40:05 PM River was Ad Now what? Swear a lot, hold your head in your hands and then check/call hoping he bets a busted flush draw - then swear some more as you put on your jacket after he shows A2o. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MC on July 22, 2009, 05:41:42 PM well your hand is dead hope he checks total air Yeah, there's a slim hope of a busted flush draw, and it kinda looks like you might be slow playing a full house which might deter him from betting. But obv this is a check-fold. Perhaps if he bets 100 you can call for curiosity's sake but that's it... Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MANTIS01 on July 22, 2009, 10:24:08 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. I don't get this. I like bet the flop strong/check the turn line vs the right villain in the right situation...but that's not here. Right villain? op says villain would only ever raise premium pre...so seemingly a conservative player. What makes us think checking is the right play vs a conservative player? Right situation? Hero bets 400 out of his 2.4k into 3 players on the flop and checks the turn with 1.2k out there and 2k in his stack. What would a bet from villain achieve now? Is villain ever going to get hero to fold a better hand than the Ace we put him on? Never. Is hero checking now to call with a worse hand? Never. So why would a conservative player fire at this pot? Because he's scared of getting outdrawn? He would have to think hero bets into 3 players on a draw and when he loses 2 oppos he suddenly checks his draw when over half his stack's out there. Do people do that? Villain knows betting the turn is playing for 2k or nothing...and he's beat when he plays for 2k and ahead when he plays for nothing. Checking is a very unconvincing strategy imo. But if you guys can list all the reaons why you would bet your A in villain's spot I might come round. The truth is you're betting out and your customer is calling and there's abs no need to divert from that line with some vague he always bets theory. If you deffo put your oppo on an Ace you can just push and expect a call imo. No point in putting half your stack in on the turn and facing this ridic situation of fretting a river. Finding yourself c-folding the river and leaving yourself down to the felt in this spot is plainly ridic. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: Kar l on July 22, 2009, 10:39:07 PM Fold pre
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: GreekStein on July 22, 2009, 11:20:05 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. I don't get this. I like bet the flop strong/check the turn line vs the right villain in the right situation...but that's not here. Right villain? op says villain would only ever raise premium pre...so seemingly a conservative player. What makes us think checking is the right play vs a conservative player? Right situation? Hero bets 400 out of his 2.4k into 3 players on the flop and checks the turn with 1.2k out there and 2k in his stack. What would a bet from villain achieve now? Is villain ever going to get hero to fold a better hand than the Ace we put him on? Never. Is hero checking now to call with a worse hand? Never. So why would a conservative player fire at this pot? Because he's scared of getting outdrawn? He would have to think hero bets into 3 players on a draw and when he loses 2 oppos he suddenly checks his draw when over half his stack's out there. Do people do that? Villain knows betting the turn is playing for 2k or nothing...and he's beat when he plays for 2k and ahead when he plays for nothing. Checking is a very unconvincing strategy imo. But if you guys can list all the reaons why you would bet your A in villain's spot I might come round. The truth is you're betting out and your customer is calling and there's abs no need to divert from that line with some vague he always bets theory. If you deffo put your oppo on an Ace you can just push and expect a call imo. No point in putting half your stack in on the turn and facing this ridic situation of fretting a river. Finding yourself c-folding the river and leaving yourself down to the felt in this spot is plainly ridic. tl; dr cliffs notes pls Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MANTIS01 on July 22, 2009, 11:40:13 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. I don't get this. I like bet the flop strong/check the turn line vs the right villain in the right situation...but that's not here. Right villain? op says villain would only ever raise premium pre...so seemingly a conservative player. What makes us think checking is the right play vs a conservative player? Right situation? Hero bets 400 out of his 2.4k into 3 players on the flop and checks the turn with 1.2k out there and 2k in his stack. What would a bet from villain achieve now? Is villain ever going to get hero to fold a better hand than the Ace we put him on? Never. Is hero checking now to call with a worse hand? Never. So why would a conservative player fire at this pot? Because he's scared of getting outdrawn? He would have to think hero bets into 3 players on a draw and when he loses 2 oppos he suddenly checks his draw when over half his stack's out there. Do people do that? Villain knows betting the turn is playing for 2k or nothing...and he's beat when he plays for 2k and ahead when he plays for nothing. Checking is a very unconvincing strategy imo. But if you guys can list all the reaons why you would bet your A in villain's spot I might come round. The truth is you're betting out and your customer is calling and there's abs no need to divert from that line with some vague he always bets theory. If you deffo put your oppo on an Ace you can just push and expect a call imo. No point in putting half your stack in on the turn and facing this ridic situation of fretting a river. Finding yourself c-folding the river and leaving yourself down to the felt in this spot is plainly ridic. tl; dr cliffs notes pls I had good strat you had bad strat Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: AlexMartin on July 23, 2009, 04:08:11 AM maybe u guys are right but i hate how important this pot is to our stack size and thus not getting all the money in here is horrid.
Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: david3103 on July 23, 2009, 06:29:34 AM Seems my line was fine and was taking us to the desired outcome of but as has been observed, the A was the worst possible card to see because I knew then that I was behind.
1275 chips left, blinds up to 100/200 when we come back after the break, I smiled as it fell and pushed the last of my chips into the middle If the break hadn't started at that point I believe he'd have folded but he talked himself into making the "I think I'm behind but I've put too much in to the pot to fold" speech and then the apparently reluctant call with Ace Ten Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MANTIS01 on July 23, 2009, 09:28:40 AM Seems my line was fine and was taking us to the desired outcome of but as has been observed, the A was the worst possible card to see because I knew then that I was behind. 1275 chips left, blinds up to 100/200 when we come back after the break, I smiled as it fell and pushed the last of my chips into the middle If the break hadn't started at that point I believe he'd have folded but he talked himself into making the "I think I'm behind but I've put too much in to the pot to fold" speech and then the apparently reluctant call with Ace Ten Is your line fine david? Pushing your last few chips in when you know you're beat is piss poor. The only thing worse is your oppo's hideous nit roll. That stuff about if the break hadn't started he folds is stupid buddy. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: david3103 on July 23, 2009, 10:50:51 AM Seems my line was fine and was taking us to the desired outcome of but as has been observed, the A was the worst possible card to see because I knew then that I was behind. 1275 chips left, blinds up to 100/200 when we come back after the break, I smiled as it fell and pushed the last of my chips into the middle If the break hadn't started at that point I believe he'd have folded but he talked himself into making the "I think I'm behind but I've put too much in to the pot to fold" speech and then the apparently reluctant call with Ace Ten Is your line fine david? Pushing your last few chips in when you know you're beat is piss poor. The only thing worse is your oppo's hideous nit roll. That stuff about if the break hadn't started he folds is stupid buddy. tbh - - I posted the hand to get feedback on the line up to the point where the 2nd A appeared. and that seems to be ok. Shoving the river may Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: EvilPie on July 23, 2009, 11:53:52 AM Seems my line was fine and was taking us to the desired outcome of but as has been observed, the A was the worst possible card to see because I knew then that I was behind. 1275 chips left, blinds up to 100/200 when we come back after the break, I smiled as it fell and pushed the last of my chips into the middle If the break hadn't started at that point I believe he'd have folded but he talked himself into making the "I think I'm behind but I've put too much in to the pot to fold" speech and then the apparently reluctant call with Ace Ten Is your line fine david? Pushing your last few chips in when you know you're beat is piss poor. The only thing worse is your oppo's hideous nit roll. That stuff about if the break hadn't started he folds is stupid buddy. tbh - - I posted the hand to get feedback on the line up to the point where the 2nd A appeared. and that seems to be ok. Shoving the river may You could've been in 1000 pots with this guy and this is still bad dude. Unless he happened to be on a club draw he's calling and you know you're behind. You can't rep the A because he wasn't bothered about that before so why would he be now? He calls the flop and the turn so you know he's calling the river right? 1275 might be low when you back but at least you get to come back on the button with a full round to find a spot to get your chips in. I know you say you wanted analysis on the other part of the hand but this is just as important. Whatever happened in the hand previously this is the bit where you lost all your chips. You hadn't played it bad up until the river (although I bet more on the turn) then you just blow it. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: david3103 on July 23, 2009, 12:05:00 PM Seems my line was fine and was taking us to the desired outcome of but as has been observed, the A was the worst possible card to see because I knew then that I was behind. 1275 chips left, blinds up to 100/200 when we come back after the break, I smiled as it fell and pushed the last of my chips into the middle If the break hadn't started at that point I believe he'd have folded but he talked himself into making the "I think I'm behind but I've put too much in to the pot to fold" speech and then the apparently reluctant call with Ace Ten Is your line fine david? Pushing your last few chips in when you know you're beat is piss poor. The only thing worse is your oppo's hideous nit roll. That stuff about if the break hadn't started he folds is stupid buddy. tbh - - I posted the hand to get feedback on the line up to the point where the 2nd A appeared. and that seems to be ok. Shoving the river may You could've been in 1000 pots with this guy and this is still bad dude. yeah ok you're spot on and I know it, and even if it had got through (which it so nearly did) it's still spewy. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: GreekStein on July 23, 2009, 12:18:41 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. I don't get this. I like bet the flop strong/check the turn line vs the right villain in the right situation...but that's not here. Right villain? op says villain would only ever raise premium pre...so seemingly a conservative player. What makes us think checking is the right play vs a conservative player? Right situation? Hero bets 400 out of his 2.4k into 3 players on the flop and checks the turn with 1.2k out there and 2k in his stack. What would a bet from villain achieve now? Is villain ever going to get hero to fold a better hand than the Ace we put him on? Never. Is hero checking now to call with a worse hand? Never. So why would a conservative player fire at this pot? Because he's scared of getting outdrawn? He would have to think hero bets into 3 players on a draw and when he loses 2 oppos he suddenly checks his draw when over half his stack's out there. Do people do that? Villain knows betting the turn is playing for 2k or nothing...and he's beat when he plays for 2k and ahead when he plays for nothing. Checking is a very unconvincing strategy imo. But if you guys can list all the reaons why you would bet your A in villain's spot I might come round. The truth is you're betting out and your customer is calling and there's abs no need to divert from that line with some vague he always bets theory. If you deffo put your oppo on an Ace you can just push and expect a call imo. No point in putting half your stack in on the turn and facing this ridic situation of fretting a river. Finding yourself c-folding the river and leaving yourself down to the felt in this spot is plainly ridic. tl; dr cliffs notes pls I had good strat you had bad strat Durr challenge at even money me vs u. PLO or NL? Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: MANTIS01 on July 23, 2009, 12:41:30 PM Check shove, he'll bet an ace Really like CR turn given he will probably bet his entire range, our hand is incredibly vulnerable but likely best and that the turn has just given a lot of flushdraws a gutterball/pair which he will want to flex. So glad the coaching is working Alex. I don't get this. I like bet the flop strong/check the turn line vs the right villain in the right situation...but that's not here. Right villain? op says villain would only ever raise premium pre...so seemingly a conservative player. What makes us think checking is the right play vs a conservative player? Right situation? Hero bets 400 out of his 2.4k into 3 players on the flop and checks the turn with 1.2k out there and 2k in his stack. What would a bet from villain achieve now? Is villain ever going to get hero to fold a better hand than the Ace we put him on? Never. Is hero checking now to call with a worse hand? Never. So why would a conservative player fire at this pot? Because he's scared of getting outdrawn? He would have to think hero bets into 3 players on a draw and when he loses 2 oppos he suddenly checks his draw when over half his stack's out there. Do people do that? Villain knows betting the turn is playing for 2k or nothing...and he's beat when he plays for 2k and ahead when he plays for nothing. Checking is a very unconvincing strategy imo. But if you guys can list all the reaons why you would bet your A in villain's spot I might come round. The truth is you're betting out and your customer is calling and there's abs no need to divert from that line with some vague he always bets theory. If you deffo put your oppo on an Ace you can just push and expect a call imo. No point in putting half your stack in on the turn and facing this ridic situation of fretting a river. Finding yourself c-folding the river and leaving yourself down to the felt in this spot is plainly ridic. tl; dr cliffs notes pls I had good strat you had bad strat Durr challenge at even money me vs u. PLO or NL? Durr challenge? Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: daviebhoy on July 23, 2009, 02:39:37 PM Quote Durr challenge? I think this is the equivalent of arranging to meet up in the park after the school bell rings. Title: Re: SB flops two pair Post by: daviebhoy on July 23, 2009, 02:53:29 PM maybe u guys are right but i hate how important this pot is to our stack size and thus not getting all the money in here is horrid. I have been trying to understand the c/r turn line. Obv c/r turn doesn't stop the A falling river but it does kill the hand a bunch of times. Are we happy to take this down on the turn when just betting every street makes it much more likely we get all the money in ? I don't really understand why we risk giving a free river card or risk not putting all our chips in here considering hand strength and stack size. |