blonde poker forum

Background: We've only been playing a few levels and I've certainly been pretty active but I've only 3-bet once so far pre flop and I've also showed down a flopped 2 pair to win a fairly meaty pot.

Hand: I'm on the button with 13,300. Its 75/150. Villain has c15/16k and is in the cut off.

Important thing to note is that I don't look at my hand until it gets to me. When I look round the table quickly I notice cut off has looked at his hand and is holding it between his knuckles (seemingly about to muck). It then folds round pretty quickly to him. He puts his cards back down and raises to 450.

I decide to 3-bet to 1300. I now look and have K4ss. Blinds pass and he calls.

Flop.... A 10 6, rainbow. I bet 1600 and he thinks for 45 seconds and calls. My read on him is really weak.

Turn... 8. Again he checks and I decide to barrel again. This time I bet 2900. He thinks a bit longer this time and calls.

River....5. I don't usually fire 3-barrels on boards this dry but I don't think there's much he can call with, esp with my read that he's weak. I move in for 7500. He thinks for a good two minutes and puts the chips in.

What do we think of my line, including bet sizing and what would we need to call in his shoes?

Interesting hand, I have a similar one which I'll post a bit later.

Before I look at the hand, a side note is that its really good that a) youre looking at other people and their behaviour as the hand comes out and b) youre not looking at your cards until you act.

For less experienced players: the benefits of a) are obvious, in terms of b) not only does this make any moves based on what your body language is from other players to act before you impossible, it also means that in a tourney like this where youre playing for hours on end, it will make the day go a hell of a lot faster and is generally a good thing to do which most dont. I know you know this, Im just saying, for others! :P

3betting pre is perfect, you have your read and youve gone with it and youre in great position to take it down there and then, and even if not then you are in position to outplay postflop.

The flop is pretty perfect for you and the bet is standard.

The turn has a lot to do with how youve played thus far. Have you been 2 barrelling alot? With what likely hands? Does V think you would 2 barrell with AQ/AK or would you check and try to control the pot size a little? I would generally be tempted to do the same in this spot and again i think the bet-sizing is good but against certain opponenets, it is more believable to check back the turn and fire the river.

On this river you have 2 options, give up or shove and throughout the hand you have perceived him as weak so i am in the camp of ship it in and pray hes not as bad as he looks and doesn’t call you down with A2.

However, this is the point at which your hand most looks like a bluff as pretty much the only thing you are shoving here for value is AA or 1010 which follows the line you’ve taken.

In terms of what he should be calling with, on the river I actually think he can call with any ace or even a ten, because the shove looks either monsterously strong or a total bluff, however, he should have given up the hand before then anyway because you look strong on all other streets.

Don’t forget even though it’s the £300 deepstack, the players are still on the whole pretty bad and once V has called the turn he is almost always going to call a blank river too :(

Cool hand. Would want more of a read on his player tendencies, old/young, active/tight/spewy etc before making this 3ball. Also, I am slightly concerned with the 8 and 5, would be much happier if one/both were some KQJ, simply because we know he has some weak tp type hand that cant take 3 streets of heat but might have just binked and id want to reduce those combinations. Flop timing is interesting, lot can be drawn from it but really depends on amateur/pro, reads etc. I dont rule out A10 with a 45 second think anyhow.......

Problem i have biggest issue with is the bestising, i dont think we are deep enough to fire 3 effective barrels without getting villain pot-commited by the river. Looks like on villain we are shipping 7500 into 12000 ish, dont like this so much. If we can jam 10/11k villain has a tougher time w AJ/A9.

All in all, i think its a really well played hand if villain is weaktight, but im not sure if its necessary to take such high risk/reward in a comp where your postflop edge is significant and the structure is slow enough that u can chip up risk free. Save this 5hit for day 2 imo.

You have to think how would you have played a strong hand here?

If you've 3 bet a strong hand here such as AK or AQ do you really fire 3 barrels? I think a set fires 3 times so you could be playing AA or 10 10. Even these though you possibly check the turn to try to show some weakness. It's also highly unlikely that you've hit a set.

Your strong betting isn't to protect anything as the board isn't dangerous given the pre flop action. You've either got the lot or very little.

Oppo could easily have a set although your reads on him suggest that's doubtful. 2 pair definitely a possibility but again given the read pre that he was mucking what can he possibly have??

Tough one mate.

Personally I would never be in oppo's situation as I don't look before it's my action. If I raise the cut off with shite I don't defend unless it's nicely connected shite so I could easily make a call here with 2 pair, 6 8, 8 10 etc.

Maybe oppo was expecting a raise so was looking to pass his A rag. If I open with an A and get raised by the BB or SB it won't be easy to push me off it in position when I hit even though my kicker's shite. The stronger your action looks the more likely I am to call.

So for me if I got in to this situation I'm calling with top pair. I don't even see the turn or river with less.

i`d say he would call on the flop to make a move on the turn or river ,i`d say he had K 8 .AND CALLED ON THE RIVER .

I always fail to see the point in asking a question like 'what would you need to call in villain's shoes'. The answers you get wont help you to understand the mindset of this villain, they only reveal the mentality of the poster, and considering you aren't in a pot with the poster what does it matter what they would call with? Your read on villain is weak pre-flop so you 3-bet. How does he respond? He calls the re-raise with his weak hand. Flop - your read on villain is weak so you bet. How does he respond with his weak hand? He calls. Turn - your read on villain is weak so you bet. How does he respond? He calls with his weak hand. River - your read on villain is weak so you bet. What do you think villain is going to do with his weak hand? I mean I don't think you should be thinking he's weak so I should deffo bet, because it is very clear weakness is not stopping him calling and it is clear he isn't drawing. Bluffing at a player who can't fold is only something to address in your own game imo.

As a side note the mark of a good player is that when a big pot is played they usually have a hand, i've read 3 hands from this dtd tournament now and on all 3 occasions a big pot has been played and hero has had abs feck all.

Cos, he wouldn't check call A-x on flop and turn into someone he thinks might be aggro?

I suppose he called with a lot less, just saying I'm not sure the third barrel stacks up much given the action


p.s nice post!

I think he saw that you saw that he was going to muck therefore he thought that you thought he was weak.

He level twelved you Cos

your line looks like air or nuts. i always call u here really light as i dont think u put third barrel in with marginal hand as ude be happy to showdown(unless we have history). in these spots thinking players tend to have air alot more then they have the goods(online it would go bet bet shove by a bluffer who shoves river in desperation)live it gos bet bet  pleae fold bet . but i have called down with a bare  ten in this type of spot with the same logic of nuts or air  and been shown ace rag to be tottally valued townd by live and online players. so mhhhh what do i know.  

also if he calls u on turn he should prob not folding river as your range of bettin 3streets of value should be thin and your bluffing in position probly accounts for more of ya range then value betting 3streets of value.  my choice is made on the turn if im out of position and i call the turn then feel free to pwn me with a shove on the river as i never call turn to fold river. i can call turn to fold river but i have to know your tendencies a little more if im going to call turn to fold river.

Discussed this with Rooks in the car on the way home. We agreed that in retrospect I just didn't really need to make a move this early though with my read on him I don't feel I did anything wrong.

Villain did eventually call after about a minute and a half's tank with K8. He said afterwards that he was floating me on the flop. (From OOP with K8 - [ ] wp)

I'm probably firing 3-barrels on such a dry board as a bluff such a tiny % of the time that I think his call shows a huge loss but w/e. Fair play I got pwned in that hand but the guy was out less than 2 hours later.

I don't agree with anyone who says my line is air or nuts, i.e 1010/AA. 100% I valueshove this river with AK and AQ.

do we play AK like this?

Sometimes I flat pre Alex but yeah why not?

Where's the need for pre there aren't even antes?

Can we check back turn fire river to try to more credibly rep AK?

It depends how much he is thinking, could check the flop to rep an actual hand that just doesn't like the A if he's not likely to snap lead the turn everytime we dont bet flop. If he hand reads then it's not like your repping much 3 betting and 3 barrelling an a high rainbow board in a deepstack situation where you are better than people. so why not just red line winnings the feck out of everyone instead of doing our stack like this?

105 bets with tp as a standard or is this just against this specific type of player?
sets/A8s/A6s/ possibly AK-AQ

I think i'd prefer smaller bets on flop turn and river to 'try and widen his value range on such a dry board'.

I've only just seen this but I agree with the replies here - the shove doesn't make a lot of sense, especially at this stage of a deepstack. I think mantis sums it up best.

Nothing wrong with letting go occasionally.

In reality I really dont think youre shoving AK for value on the river here.

err why?  seems as good a spot to do so as any.

agrii. I think if your betting turn, shoving river makes sense.

lol wtf

What do u think of the rest Dr Demps?

Hand is spew, fold pre.

Cos you are so bad, as I told you in the car on way home.

I fkn taught you how to play in the journey on the way up...then bink £15k score.

Coincidence? I think not.

Btw I'm awesome.

if you decide to three bet pre with AK - surely three streets of value is pretty standard - esp after he checks river, etc - or am I a spew???

Thanks for responses guys.

In retrospect I knew my mistake was getting too busy here. Normally I'm pretty effective at accumulating a stack early but I just forced the action too much and played a bit too fast when I didn't need to.

To those that said my line is nuts or air I really disagree with this. I think I shove AQ here too and bet AJ based on my read.

Can't wait to put it in villains eye soon.

Agreed. People who don't seek 3 streets of value with TPTK in this tournament vs this type of villain are nuts. However, you have spent all that money proving this truth to the better players at the table. They will no doubt appreciate that.

But the fact is your line looks like nuts or air to a lot of people. It looks more like air than nuts though.

That's exactly why you can bet for value with TPTK because you will get called light.

Bluffing following the flop call and more importantly the turn call is very risky.

Think of the hand from oppo's point of view if he had posted it on here:

I called the flop because I think my middle pair is good.

I then call the turn because I still think I'm good.

He shoves the river. Now what?

Obv we still think we're good so it's a call.

He didn't have middle pair on the flop. Villian had a better K high.

Cos got well and truly pwned

Can't really debate now as I've had time to think about it and agree I shouldn't have played the hand in the first place. That being said....

Just go over that again pls Matt where you outline oppos thinking. Start with pre pls and include what you think his thought process is on the flop where he has no pair, no draw.

I don't think 3 streets is good against the better players but all day against the donks.

If this tournament wasn't monthly i'd like it alot more. It's just so soft we can find such better spots and save this for when the antes are in and people are folding too much.

Tbh pre I don't know what the hell he's thinking calling your 3 bet with K8. Perhaps he's just stubborn.

On the flop he perhaps thinks "hmmmm. Standard c bet following a raise. If I call here and he checks the turn I could win this pot. After all who's going to go mad this early?"

When you fire the turn he thinks "hmmm I've hit now. What could oppo possibly have? Surely he doesn't double barrel here with just an ace? Maybe my 8's good? If I call here no one in there right mind triple barrels so I probably get to showdown and win."

When you fire the river he thinks "WTF!!!!! Oh man I've got myself in the shit here I'd best fold. Hang on a sec let's think. WTF can he have? Does he really fire 3 streets with just an ace? What could he have that beats me? Does he look like he could be bluffing? Is he good enough to fire 3 streets with TPTK knowing it looks like a bluff? Has he got lucky and flopped a set? Are there any cash games started yet? Ah yes there is. Meh. Fuck it I call.

Wow K8, did the guy mention he has a tv show where he predicts the lottery numbers later in the week.

I don't know who I wanted to shoot first. Myself or him?

That's a lot of thinking for a guy who's shown us he's not really thinking much :)

The dealer for the sick cold deck?

So is it a genius call or a shit one?

Him obv, DUCY?

I think he's a shit player who made a shit play but ultimately his call on the river is a good one.

rotflmfao

stand infront of him and shoot yourself in face and do you both?!?  rotflmfao

It's a good job you'll only need to use two bullets, you'd prob miss with the third.

:)

rotflmfao

eh? Do I even know you?

potw

+1