blonde poker forum

Ok so take a look at this hand and tell me what you think.

Background info: I have opened UTG twice thus far, once when I had QQ and 4bet/folded pre and showed and he had KK, other time I didnt show but I took it down and strength was obvious. Generally I have a tag image, most people at the table know im decent and I havent shown a bluff. I have bet 3 streets once and showed a turned top 2 pair. Also important to note that I have overbet the river once and showed a straight to take it down.

We are about 6 levels in, I have about 18k blinds are 150/300 with 50 ante i think.

I havent played a hand in a couple of rounds and open UTG with  6h 8h to 850. Everyone quickly folds around to the button who thinks then calls. V has around 24k in chips and is quite laggy. SB and BB fold.

Flop is  Qc 9h 2c and I c bet 1350. V tanks and calls, he obviously hates it so Im sure he has a weak Q here or possibly something like 88 or TT so my plan is to fire almost all turns.

Turn is  5h. Given that I was going to fire the turn anyway and that now I have a tons of outs that I want to get value from if I spike, I fire again for 3250. V again tanks, and eventually makes the call. He is screaming weakness again and so my plan is to shove any heart, any card giving me a straight and pretty much anything other than an 8, K or Q.

River is 3s. I move all in and he tanks, counts out the 13k, has it in one hand with his cards in the other and eventually mucks :D

He later said he had AQ.

Generally in this tournament the format is such that you don’t necessarily need to force the action and go for an all out bluff like this but I think the reason it got through was the previous history, something paramount to think about when making big plays later on in tournaments.

You got it through, wp, but at the risk of sounding sarcastic, you only needed to wait three hands and you could have opened with any two cards and found the hand a lot easier and stress free.

Having said that, nothing wrong with mixing it up, and you do need to take bluffing opportunities when they arrive. Nobody wins a tournament by folding. (Probably why I play cash lol).

Oh, and good job you overbet that straight earlier, or he would probably have called. As read, I certainly would have been tempted.

I cant open on the BTN if its been raised up beforehand :P Which was often the case tbh and given that a raise from the BTN is so standard ATC nowadays I'm actually doing it less and less and am polarizing my range when i do do it. I chose this spot specifically because it was UTG and I can therefore represent supreme strength when i don't have it and can control the action quite easily.

Why show the QQ hand

Although i wouldn't play hand same as villain i'm calling here with AQ,you have a busted draw here so often that it's a definite call for me.I take it you check the turn with aq/kq for pot control ?

Showed QQ as he said he would show if i did and the info that I was beat is more valuable to me than the info im giving away.

I wouldnt be playing kq utg and my range doesnt really include that many busted draws tbh. I agree AQ calls here more often than not, however if im honest i dont actually believe V had aq, i think q10-kq is much more likely, he was trying to make it seem like he made a bigger fold than it really was imo. mainly because the consensus on the table was that i had QQ or 99.

and no im firing the turn 100% with aq/kq fwiw for not giving free drawing card control :P

Sorry but so much in this thread is just wrong.

I will try and be as nice as possible.

4betting to fold QQ is terrible, what did you expect to happen when you 4b? Showing it is even worse, you gained the info that you are going to do stupid stuff like 4b fold, you got the info his 5b range includes KK....not really a surprise.

You say its 150-300/50 but you are folding KQ UTG, plz dont you should be opening pretty much every unopened pot with antes this high.

Your plan if you made a hand on the river was the same if you missed, this is obviously pretty bad, you think guy has a weak hand that cant call a shove yet you plan to shove if you make your hand?!?!?!

If people keep opening on your btn, then just start 3betting.

Firing the turn with 1 pair combo's OOP and this stack size is usually a bad idea, have a specific plan before you do it.

Hope some of that was helpful, for the record i have never played this comp.

This could start a trend.....

one off imo

Open pretty much every unopened pot UTG? well this makes my range kinda obvious tbh ducy?

When you are 150bb deep, early in a big deepstack tourney, 4bet folding is not terrible. I lost 20% of my chips in a spot where any other line loses you 50-100% and i will never ever agree otherwise. Showing it was purely on the basis of confirming that he had kk/aa because if not i could spend quite a while tilting myself thinking iv done the wrong thing and in a toruney im not keen on wasting time second guessing myself. i.e. the 'info' was that i made the right read on him, which also is something i can use in future. do you even play live poker? probably not from the way youre talking.

How can you ever say what someones range should be UTG or otherwise? so dumb, it obviously totally depends on your image and table etc etc etc I'm looking to polarize my range UTG as well as my 3betting range, if you dont play that way then fine but saying its bad is inherently bad itself!

Why am i shoving almost my entire range on the river? because if you hadnt realised (and it seems you havent) the pot is now 12k, wtf is the point in making some dumb value bet for 1/2 pot when if he is going to call that he is going to call a shove anyway, moreover, if i do hit my card i want to get paid dont i? equally i dont want to take my hand to showdown if im not getting a good return as it obviously ruins my image and means i have to change my game therein.

Hope some of that was helpful, for the record its obvious you dont play this comp, grind online mtts if thats your thing but its so different to a live comp like this you cant go making posts like that because they just dont apply in the same way

seems a good way to look at poker.

how is saying a line i take is terrible any different?

im definitely open to constructive criticism but there are certain inalienable truths, and this is one of them, 4et folding qq in that spot is not terrible, why? because you go broke if you dont fold, unless youre lucky enough to hit your 2 outers.

DONT 4BET

kk and when it comes a 9 high board i can just go broke and blame bad luck? prefer to win tbh.

you gotta call down 3 streets with an overpair?

How did that work out for you?

not being a twat or anything but whilst my AA < AK after J32 flop with 41 players left, i hear you were hitting your two outers??!

yeh but rooks won money is this tournament - howd did it work out for you sir???

Approx 100% of hands tend to be unopened when you are UTG, ducy?

So what if your range is obvious, its not a high stakes tournament, the field is v weak and your oppo's wont adjust.


I will start at the back, you should probably not be so results orientated, if he had AA/KK or not you are sure you made the right decision so why do you need to see it?

4b folding a monster is terrible and i dont see how i would ever lose 75-150bb in this pot, unless of course i got my set beaten, i am a lot more likely to win 75-150bb. As Knave says, never looking to change that is com.

Oh and yeah i have played a little bit of live poker in my time.


I actually dont mind trying to polarise your 3b range, its lazy poker but it works in fields this soft.

It's 1050 a pot @ 200-400 you just need a 50% strike rate to break even before we even talk about winning pots post, playing every hand god gives you here is a good idea.


Its a weak field tournament people do stupid stuff like call off then fold, after all you were planning on him doing just that! However bad players just wont fold top pair if you fire a VB that allows them to continue playing and enjoying their experience of playing such a high buyin prestigious event.



I am guessing i have played more low buyin live comps than you have, but, w/e

Ahh, you will be telling me I was wrong to get my chips in with 77 in a minute and that I should have raise folded from my 10 bigs..

So we are 4 betting to make sure he has aa or kk so we can fold. Why don't we just 4 bet are entire opening range then, if we are bluffing?

If villian was comptent he would probably call your 4 bet with aa or kk then we have not achieved anything at all. Flat the 3bet and play some poker imo.

no, iv no idea, but what you said was really douchey considering the one reason i didnt make the money

4bet folding Queens are reasons you dont make money mate.

lmao its ok, i dont begrudge your luckboxing to 2nd ;) why the aggro?

Sick rubdown.

il take the under.

Sigh have you given up debating the merits of the hand, replacing it instead with jealous rantings thrown in the direction of The Oracle?

lol wtf my bad, how did u not at least get 2nd? w/e man why even be a douche on the internet, 'how did that work out for you' wow how much of a joke can you be when you yourself got so lucky to be there and i got the 2% suckout just before the money, wow. just wow.

no, tbh if you werent so idioticly biased youd see who was the douche. anyway, i get what youre saying for the most part, i know how good you are but you are good enough to know that there are so many ways to play every hand and to be so autocratic in your analysis is pretty bad considering youre not looking at it in a vacuum, its a situation specific hand and having played with these people face to face for 8 hours things are different.

btw the qq hand was i utg raise, c/o 3 bets, i 4bet and he insta-ships.

i WAS thinking about flatting it pre but then im playing oop and on a low board im fucked as to what to do, enlighten me.

Thought the QQ was early? Thats the truly murdered hand.



June you didn't even come 41st, so sick how people exaggerate on the internet.

42   Sam Proffitt

P.S. sick real name though for poker, figured it was an alias as didn't see a THM data entry.

i suppose i can rest my case on the whole, who's a douche thing now?

Yeah if you flat they deal out 3 cards, then if it comes J hi or lower you can just call another bet and they deal a turn. We call this 'playing the streets'

Its also how we extract a lot more value from hands like AK and JJ, rather than trying to make them fold pre.

Can you tell us your AA v AK hand pls? Preflop and flop etc.

ummm you will prob try be a douche about it again but ok, its already on the £300 dtd final day thing anyway

i raise utg to 7k, i have 45k

keys rr to 20k from mp2, that nutt girl rrr to 60k from btn, i call keys folds.

flop j32 rainbow, turn k river k

You got it in pre then? I thought it was in on the flop?

norrrrrrr 3 kings it is

sorry yeh it was pre, guess it was standard, doesnt matter

This is com

Flushy gets shit for not being helpful
Flushy and other shrewdies give some good helpful info
New guy thinks there all tez and tries to tell them where there going wrong and has no interest in actually improving his own game

THREAD STILL DELIVERED

Was just about to post this. Flushy is nice and friendly and gets slated for it by the guy he is giving advice to...lol

I love people who post something in the HA board and then say "you're all tez and wrong and I'll never change". Really, what's the point?

Don't post on the hand analysis board if you're not willing to take on the advice people give.

Some of the best MTT players online are here to give you advice, as are others like James Dempsey and David Jones.

What they said about 4-bet folding is 100% true yet you want to completely argue against it? By all means question it, put across your view but don't flat out dismiss it from players who are better than you.

gl

arguing against it is literally no different to people saying it is 100% true, do you not see why?

argument from me was in retaliation, i wasnt the one starting to be an arsehole, and lol at all the fanboys

Enough please.

Debate sensibly and politely, no need to throw brickbats around

gg

Has a post been removed,otherwise i can't see what anyone has said that is "throwing a brickbat" at sam proffitt

PS What is a brickbat ? seriousy never heard that before

calling someone an arsehole=throwing a brickbat at them

Sam's new here, just asking him (and those on the the other side of the debate) to go easy before it turns too personal. Ta

what on earth is 'throwing a brickbat'?

http://www.word-detective.com/2009/06/02/brickbat/


to hurl a derogatory term at someone, in this context

lol wow, plenty of impartiality itt.

Sam, my comments are aimed at anyone and everyone.

However your comment "i wasnt the one starting to be an arsehole" is not acceptable on here

As you are a new member, I am trying to explain this, rather than let things escalate from here

Thanks

Sam,

You put a thread up,what was your reason for doing so.Generally i would guess to get advice on how people feel you played the hand/things you could've done better/ways to improve.People who are amongst the better players in the country (this is not me being a fanboy,its fact) give you good advice you reply "i will never ever agree otherwise"which is just plain ignorance,you then go on to give sarcastic reply's such as  "kk and when it comes a 9 high board i can just go broke and blame bad luck? prefer to win tbh" when as far as i can see you've had only productive good advice giving to you at this point.Then rooks gives a sarcastic reply back so you start having a go at him,this is pretty strange behaviour since i assume you don't even know him.Some of the threads on here were newbies put threads up can be pretty strong,this is not one of them and your out of order imo.

No one wants it to turn personal.

Sam was genuinely being offered pretty good advice. Its just that when Flushy or someone makes a comment about MTT strat he's generally right and so it's too easy to mention things like 'fanboys' etc when everyone agrees with him rather than stepping back and thinking 'hold on, this might be a leak, let me address it'.

Probably not the right way to start on blonde...I didn't make any enemies until I had at least 2000 posts!

In seriousness though Sam - I've been on blonde for a while and when I first joined I almost felt offended by the tone of some replies I'd get on the PHA. You'll soon realise these people aren't trying to belittle or slag off your play but sometimes tough love is the best way to learn and improve. I've certainly found that and the board has helped my game a lot, I even taught Rookie how to play on the way up to DTD this weekend and the kid done good in the end.

Good luck, welcome to blonde and keep posting.

whole thread is basically a "3barrell bluff brag"

Wait. Hero plays a big pot in this tournament and has feck all. Evilpie buddy I think you'll find that's 4-1 to me. WTF is wrong with everybody? If anybody wants to win this tournament all they have to do is be a nit for the whole first day. Seriously, nit poker is the abs nuts when everyone wants to hero jam with air all the time. Sam, the advice you have been offered in this thread is solid.

But what if everyone is playing that way?

Who's playing that way?

reading the tourney report, very few people. But you said that to win it you just needed to 'be a nit for the whole first day'. I have neither authority nor inclination to debate that statement, but I was curious as to what would happen if everybody was taking that approach.

what's a brickbat?

what's a fanboy and can i be one?

It seems to me that the tournament is an epic battle between t'internet spewtards who fire every street with nothing into live nits who never fold anything. Patience seems like a pretty good virtue in this tournament.

I think lagtard is the way forward as you can then bust within first 2 levels and have a good day on the lash instead of grinding your ass off take a bad beat near the end of the day and everyone else is to pissed to catch them up so you just sit steaming :)

(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/751/popcornj.gif)

Thats what i was thinking myself.

LOL how'd i miss this beauty in my hole.

Cliffnotes:-  new guy, seems nice, comes on with brag "enlightening" thread about a pretty sick 3barrel bluff that appears to have worked because villain cant handread*. Thread is 100% bragament and Sam betrays some underlying bad theory (4b folding the nuts pre) which is pounced upon by head honcho, who has superior strategic knowledge. Lucky bollocks then rips into new guy. Some of the best mtt players in England then join in ripping new guy to absolute bits with some nasty jibes and unnecessary comments. New guy has balls and says no, theres a lot of ways to play this game and i dont care if you own this forum sir ill say what i want. Also bites which causes ego wars/ bad mouthing/stuff that makes Tikay wee himself (like chandra saying POT on 4th street @ 4am in a deep DC game). Mods (assume Tighty) polices it well, spectators have a laugh.

Dont worry Sam, these guys are all nice people and some (Greekstein) are pretty gifted at this stupid game. Dont ever think your view is correct though, i vividly remember about 4 years ago i stil bet for information. I still get crushed for that when i see golden bollocks.



*not gonna get into discussion about why, but 100% majority of mtt players take pot control in early stages a million more times than they take remotely thin 3 street value w AA/KK/AQ.

POTY

Cliff Notes of the Year - never knew you had it in your Mr M. You summed it up perfectly, imo.

Except I never weed myself, though I did shed a metaphorical tear or two.

Whatever happened to the art of good debate, or conflict resolution?

Hey-ho.  

EDIT - In response to a PM from a Third-Party, I must add - I have no idea who "golden bollocks" is. I'm guessing it's not Thewy this time though. ;)

Alex I thought I made a pretty good post on your thread the other day but that is com!!!

blatent "please give my post more love :(" post imo

actually it was thinly veiled

Just caught up with this thread. Yup it's now 4 - 1 to Mantis. I agree that in this tournament nittiness is a good strat. Picking spots is preferrable to getting over creative. Save that for day 2 when there's more at stake. It seems like a lot of players want to win this comp in the first day. That ain't gonna happen.

Poor old Flushy. First time I've ever seen him be nice to someone on PHA and give good advice backed up with a solid reason as to why and he gets ripped apart for it.

As for the hand. Erm.....

I don't know. Fold pre or something.

bit unfair though matt, you're always going to lose this one to mantis. you only get points for people playing the stone cold nuts but we all know how to play those hands so they won't get posted on here

mantis has taken the very clever line of choosing to earn points from hands which by their very nature are in need of analysis thus guaranteeing himself the win

you have been properly GGed

No it doesn't have to be the nuts. Just something other than stone cold sod all would score me a point.

Agree- this tourney is soft you don't have to do much to make chips. Not quite nitiness and there seems to be a mix from the loosey gooseys to the tight is right breed.

It is easily the BEST value live tourney out there.

James, if you made yr hand in this spot on the end, how would you play it

Not a very interesting hand, not even veiled brag post, but your reply is quite interesting

Love

Fanboy

x

I was going to post similar.

Flushy, to complete teh helpful advice, how about a demo of why your strat>>4bet fold?  Rather than "it just is" what happens if the flop comes AT4 or T72?  Yes we get to suck up some poker through the streets, but I am guessing many players that haven't had the experience would lose less chips by 4-bet folding than they would by flatting pre and doing more chips in through the streets.

Lets ask some Questions that Sam could have asked:

1) Is passing here pre to the 3bet an option or am I always to flat?  Or would you prefer me to 6bet his 5bet?
2) If it comes low, do I bet fold?
3) If it comes with an Ace or a King am I always check/folding?
4) What sort of flop textures can I check call?  What do I need to think about so that I don't murder more chips using your suggestion than I would 4bet folding?
5) If I hit a set how should I play it?
6) At what point do I work out if he has JJ or KK?

This is an interesting point to me too, in these spots, I'm often all in pre or lose another large chunk on teh flop. I can be results oriented and often think 4 bet folding would have suited me better - never done it but often thought it

The answer to all your questions Simon is play poker. Early and still gathering info we really don't know what his response to a 4-bet really means, especially in a tournament seemingly full of lunatics. We want to be playing big pots later where our advantage of noticing stuff will make us more certain. I don't think we need to panic or be afraid to play some poker in this spot. We don't want a worse hand to fold and we don't want a better hand to raise and 4-betting only seems to achieve one of those two things. How he reacts to the flop and what he does may give us further clues. We don't know how this guy will strat after the flop when a solid TAG smooths his 3-bet from UTG. Good info to get what he does next imo. What's better info to get is for the other players thou when they see you 4-bet fold early when images are being established. How can you trade successfully off this pussy image? Good luck playing any hand from ep anytime soon. Let's just play a pot with the guy.

I agree, I'm all for playing through the streets.  And the only way to get better at that is to actually play through the streets a few times rather than "route1" poker all the time.  Decisions will be wrong, mistakes will be made, we will get outplayed from time to time, but that's all ok and we should get better at it over time.

I am just trying to help bring things back on track a little bit whilst Flushy still has his nice head on.

how can the dtd 300 be soft? it is played in the run good capital of the world.