blonde poker forum

Ok so I played this hand yesterday at the £220 at Luton and thought it was an interesting one for discussion, especially after talking about it with professional poker players, David Jones and Benjamin Turnstill.

I'll do the hand in stages.

Bit of background: the table hates me as I've raised prob 5 hands an orbit for the first 3 levels and despite only winning one really big pot where a guy shipped on my KK open for his 60 bigs with A6 I've taken 90% of pots I've played down and I'm sitting on c.45k from the 15k starting stack. It's definitely the softest table of the 3.

We're now playing 6 handed at 200/400 and I make it 1050 with K10 on the button. The big blind who has called me 3 times previously and check folded on bad flops is becoming increasingly frustrated as I've raised his bb almost every time calls.

Flop is..... 9d Td 2s.

He checks to me and I bet 1300. He raises to 4k.

Edit: Villain has 21k at start of the hand.

We?

I think it's safe to assume bb sees your range as much wider than the tp good kicker you currently hold. That coupled with his increasing frustration means his raise doesn't need to be indicative of a very strong hand. That said he has continually c-folded and yet here he is taking another line and that needs to be respected to a certain degree. Too early to decide where you stand imo so I would smooth the raise and decide after the turn action. Interested to see his reaction as the turn drops and if/how he bets that card.

my initial reaction is to call here, although there might be alot of turn cards we don't like.

I sometimes check behind here the reason being if i can't stand i CR i opt to keep the pot smallish and to also kinda disguise my hand. If im betting the flop here i have to have already decided before betting wat i am going to do if i get CR. As played the board is obv very draw heavy and u are obv well ahead of his range etc etc blah blah. i dont mind peeling but u are gonna hate a ton of turn cards and only make your decision making harder. Having said that shipping the lot to his CR seems a bit extreme?  Fuck knows, im hungover and fooking starving atm, gonna go get a McD's. Interesting hand thou Papertits

Youre deep with position...smooth and reassess on the turn.....he could be making a play at you cos he figures you continue nearly 100% of the time... his gotta act first..lets see what he does...... The idea here is to keep control of the size of the pot.....

call, see a good turn and what he does, get it in.

We call?

We allow for the dynamic we have created and considering we have the widest possible raising range that we could have had i'm deffo not folding.

If you think he's ready to c/r and play back light then you could call, if you think he'll think you're full of sheet if you re-raise the flop then make a small re-raise and try and let him come back over the top. If he can be c/r'ing second pair for value then we can get it in well ahead. If he's horrifically tight and you want to fold to a c/r then why did you bet the flop? (I'm still betting the flop obv but this hand is so situation specific because of the image you have created).


edit how much are you cbetting? has anyone played back? you been c/r much? have you gone to showdown or is it all red line winnings? What has gone to showdown and how?

call 3 streets

I prefer to check this wet flop. C betting is fine tho

Once he c/raises I would deffo flat call. Don't level yourself into thinking he's turning a shitty hand into a bluff just cos he's getting annoyed with you. He could easily have a big combo draw or less likely have you beat now. I would play for pot control here rather then potentially flipping for it against pair and a flush draw/gutter ball and flush draw

As Alex says, if a safe card comes off on the turn I'm happy to get it in as your most likely winning when the flop comes down.

Erm flop is down

read it, 'when that flop' comes down.

Got it cheers. Fold for me or call and pray for no more diamonds.

Ok so I smoothed the raise. The turn came the  5s and he snap bet 11k with 6k back.

We?

Call, call any river?

Is he ever gonna turn up with a fd now unless it's  5d 6d   or  2d 3d with that bet sizing? If you think yes then i'd rather shove I think.

Can he have JJ here? If not we only lose to AT/99/22 and 9T. He can have a worse jack or a straight draw. If he's really knarked with you he can have a 9.

Do you know just how wide he is defending, is he calling because he's annoyed and wants to spike a flop so could have 95 or 52 or something?

go all in now, whats the worst that can happen?

If you lose then you played the tournament on Make Up from the Blondes anyway.

Ok...Lets just pause here for a moment... we have now been given massive info by our opponent based on the luxury of position...

1. his not folding.to play this hand its for his stack and in the end half of ours.. the difference here is ur in for 5k but it could cost you 21k
2. the only things we beat here is an bluff..semi or otherwise...or a horribly overplayed Q 10... u lose to 99/10 10/ 9 10 A 10 ..pos smoothed JJ QQ 22

This is a tournament not cash and we can't reload.. to spew 21K here with one pair against an opponent who has shown massive strength is madness.... you don't have to win every pot this a series of battles..u r not going to win the tournament here, but u can go a long way to losing it...

Fold...show him your top pair and hope he shows you his hand..if his bluffing he prob cant wait to show you how clever he is.. so he bluffed you..so what u still have good chips ... the idea here short handed against mainly passives is to rape thier blinds not get involved in do or die situations for half your stack.... to jam with one pair is akin to closing your eyes and praying.. You can call it weak but if you think logically..ur beat..

Combine the fact that Mr Paper's image is mental and the fact there are very few combinations of monster made hands that have us beat (given we have a 10 blocker). Literally write down on a piece of paper the monster hands he can have, the big draws, add some junk (like 77/AK coz live players do the weirdest things) and we should never be folding this without an insanely strong read we are crushed. We are burning our equity in the comp if we do.

we got the card we want now gogogogo, he's leading a huge % of turn cards after c/r the flop. If you fold now then you should fold the flop imo

I don't think villain is drawing now so he must have a made hand. If he was drawing or bluffing I think he would jam rather than leaving a few k behind. I also think he would take a little longer considering his options when a blank hit. So it really comes down to what value this villain puts on a made hand. He can have A-10, 9-10, set or overpair easily enough but considering hero's image, villain's frustration, and the fact hero looks drawy villain could have much worse than that. I think either folding or jamming are ok really dependant on how you read villain. Personally I don't like villain's small flop rr and then this spaz out on the turn. If he was as strong as the rr made out I don't see how the sudden scaredy spaz comes about. For that reason I jam. But I wont be putting one finger in the air.

Part of my thinking is that live players play a lot of hands without a plan.

When he rr'd the flop did he know what he'd do on the turn if a blank hit? With my range so wide I thought he could still make this bet with any straight or flush draw or combination of both.

His bet was so fast I insta-ruled out a set but felt he could still be thinking a hand like J10/Q10 was good too.

Opinions still welcome before I do the reveal 

I think the problem on the turn here could come from the villains thought process

Pre flop " he's raised again, gonna smooth and take it off him - he cant always have it. Gonna check raise any flop because he is 100% c betiing every time"

Flop - "bingo dry board, here comes the check raise ...................................."

Now given that the opponent is out of position this could easily have been his thought process. throughout the entire hand to now (given a non thinking player)

So we get to the turn - what bet can he possibly make? - with or without a hand?  All in is an over jam, pot sized bet (the 11k he makes it) means he "cant fold" in a normal world. Can he really check having shown flop strength and then go on to represent any meaningful hand on the river?

I believe his 11 k could still be a bluff (in the sense he could hold an underpair to the 10)

I think any flush should check this turn card, (possibly with a view to shoving your bet if you make it)

does he really smooth with AA KK QQ pre - leaving JJ and 99 as winning hands (TT unlikely)

The Villains problem here is that if his c/r was a bluff, then teh turn leaves him nowhere to go with any sensible bet size. He cant get away from his hand by betting any sensible amount, but also may feel that he cannot check and give up his momentum.

I shove the turn solely based on your image

don't think that flop is particularly dry, there are tonnes of draws out there

fair point - but i am just trying to get this hand to the point of the villain being on a bluff and having no where to go on the turn

I don't agree with this. Deffo dont fold and show.


The guy is totally going to have A9/K9 some percentage of the time. I think with your image and the texture Cos i'm still going with cawl cawl.

If you think I should fold fine but why would I show?

show one card like a live pro

Show the ten..lots of average live players feel obliged to show their hand in return for some mental reason..and def if he was bluffing he wont be able to resist..also show you have a genuine hand and ur not mental raising with any old crap.....

Sorry guys  if you just can't fold one pair some times..and this is live not internet... then ur not gonna do well..so it may be a little weak, u may have got bluffed off the best hand..big deal... in this hand you have a very high risk lose factor which will cost you half your stack... ur all too willing to just lump over 50bb into a pot thats very marginal.. look at the whole picture..ur early in a 2 day tournament..let 1 go FFS

Read the op though there are specific dynamics......

i have no problem in folding 1 pair in a live tourney but in this situation if we are folding the turn then we should have folded on the flop (also would consider whether you should bet the flop as well).

Yeah he check folded 3 times weak..which indicates his weak tight and now he wants to go to war for his stack..and your read is his a bit pissed off with you?.... er ok..

If he is bluffing surely he just shows anyway? Do we care if he shows anyway?

Showing we fold top pair when we get action like this is a terrible idea for obvious reasons.

I want people to think i am raising with any old crap.

On the flop all 3 choices are viable... fold/call/jam... we don't want to give up and calling with position controls the pot and puts the next move on him..lots of average live players bluffing the flop will suddenly bottle it and check..

He's angry with us, he doesn't like having to check fold every time. If I fold this I would never show it. I wouldn't fold though.

We all have different ways of playing..which is great..and its great because theres never a perfectly correct way to play..we are just giving opinions here...i very rarely show but i'm just trying to goad free information from probably an inexperienced player..but i think we drift from the main point of the thread...

My play is fold the turn.. i think theres too much danger to invest another 40bb's into this hand..there are plenty of hands to come and we don't have to win every single one...next time we are going to be stronger with a stronger hand and we are going to get this man's money then..

I don't think we should be getting 20k in here cos we think villain is random beserko bluffing when he's shown that isn't in his nature. I would say villain thinks he has the best hand...but the history means that he could be thinking that about a worse hand than the one we have, especially considering we only flat his rr on a wet board and the turn bricks. Checking the flop is good advice imo, especially if we don't like playing a big pot with this hand.

This is what I don't get why would you call the flop but fold the turn? What changed, what got there?

wouldnt suprise me 1 bit if villain has AK in this hand

i dont think that with the description given of the villain  that i am folding top pair here.

I understand the reasoning given to folding  - but given the meta game it isnt happening.

Not a case of anything changing ..we have controlled the pot size and put the next action to him..his turn bet has confirmed we are now playing for all the money..and this is where we decide to go steaming in or play conservative and protect our stack and get the money in in a much less precarious spot...if he is on some Kamikaze bluff let him..sooner or later im catching him and he won't have any outs..
As an aside i finished 2nd in this comp and should have won it tbh .... I had a similar decision on day 2 and made the call in that situation as there were slightly different circumstances.... but here i fold..i got my answer and I follow my instincts that im beat and im about to do half my stack when there is no need to..

lol

Ssssh ! rooks..arn't you late for school or something...

This is funny Dean, reminds me of a time when I was having a bit of a friendly spat with our Sales Director at a Management Meeting. Now since he's in Sales he earns a bit more than me, a lowly Operations Director, but since he is in Sales he is also not quite as smart as me and that's even setting aside that I iz the dogz cojoneeez in a business sense.

Anyway, towards the end of the spat when I finally have his neck under my shoe he came out with the now legendary line in our little world .. and to paraphrase.

" You can just STFU as I earn more than you "

Much chortling all round

LOL  think it comes under the heading 'FUCK YOU '...

Cos u folded right?

When he bet 11k I moved in for the 6 he had back too.

furry muff. if you won you played it well if you lost you played it bad fwiw.

LOL....

Yeah I lost, opponent had a well played KK.

You cant play two card poker, this is why I will not stake you for four card poker.

Unlucky Cos....

lol I never gave you stick!

Nah not stick...i told you what i would have done and on this occassion i was right but you went with your feel/read at the time and thats fine..often first gut instinct is the correct one..sometimes you will be right and look like a superstar....the trouble is this is no limit..it only takes one mistake and a days work can be down the swanee..... sometimes a more conservative approach works best..  do you think you gained anything from this hand in hindsight...?

In a way yeah, I just never give live players any credit for being decent thinkers. I just thought he was snapping at me cos of how aggressive I'd been previously and top pair second nut kicker was pretty massive here. You very rarely see older live players flat hands like KK and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.

When every straight draw and flush draw missed I made my mind up it was going in - half thinking I may be trapping him too.

I guess I shoulda kept to small ball but dont really like clicking back the flop with my image nor do I like folding here.

Still curious for more opinions.

James 'Royal Flush' Dempsey?

Live players don't bluff half as much  as you think they do and old live players pretty much never bluff..if you had said the words old live player in this thread i would have recommended selling up and moving away with your hand..

Nah I wouldn't call him old, but next to my 22 years everyone is old!

think i gotta h8 you just for being 22... and i bet you don't know who bobby davro is....LOL

actually i do, never found him funny though

Did anyone?

I don't think the guy plays his hand well at all. When he c-raises the flop he snags his customer, good so far. Then when the perfect blank hits he spaz spews like 90% of his chips into the middle. What happened was he lost the bottle to play his hand well and was fortunate hero had one of a few hands that could consider calling his bet. Just ploughing your chips into a seemingly hyper-aggressive oppo takes all the play away and makes you wonder why you would bother setting a trap at all. Slowly slowly catchy monkey is a good trap...but not if you suddenly go beserk and start firing your shotgun randomly into the tree.

Great post  :)up