blonde poker forum

Ok, we’re at ALEA on a quiet Monday night, well, early morning.

Table is 8 or 9 handed. Action is pretty loose pre-flop and some big pots have developed with people seemingly unable to fold. Having said that, my image is very tight, as it always is.

After 75 hands or so, I raise for only about the third or fourth time. It is from the small blind (not telling you my hand yet). The UTG+1 had raised to £4 and been called in five places (standard really). I re-pop to £45 and with my image I expect to take this down right now to be honest.

But the BB takes forever and calls. Now UTG+1 (the original raiser) also tanks for ages and calls. Vargas the mad Latvian calls but he will do that with any two.

Everyone else gets out of the way and the pot is now just over £180 in a 50p/£1 game and we haven’t even seen the flop yet.

Flop is  9c 6c 2h

My position sucks and I feel pretty pot committed now. Nobody seems to have a genuine hand though. A decent pocket pair would have surely come out of the woodwork pre-flop with all the money that was flying in.

I have £87 left and decide for better or worse that I am pot committed, image committed and the only possible way I can win this hand is to stick the rest in. Everyone else had me covered pre-flop and they got their stacks through some pretty shit poker to be honest.


Do the cards matter here? (The key element is my rock solid image and the fact that because everyone tanked for so long, I am pretty sure I am ahead pre-flop)

If we assume I have one of these three hands, does the play make sense for each holding, and if not, why not?  -

a)   KK
b)   AQ
c)   88

Thanks.

You're shoving with just about anything you've raised with here.

Not saying I like it though unless you have a big hand. Even then I wouldn't like it but with AA KK QQ etc its fine as Vargas will call you.

Vargas folded, but by then the BB had called and so had the original raiser.

The BB had  Ac 7c

the original raiser had  9d 9h


I will tell you mine shortly

You have to shove the flop considering you say you're a nit and have rr out of the sb, you're not getting folds but if you don't have a big hand you've had a mare.

You've just got to accommodate the very special dynamic Mr Vargas brings to a game. And notice which people are adjusting to the way he plays and which aren't.

As you have said yourself, you have no option but to shove the flop with any hand as you pot committed. Not sure there is a lot else to add, your stack size dictates your play.

And the rr size preflop.

Regarding preflop you contradict yourself by saying you expect to take it down but then Mr Vargas will call with atc. Which one is it?

It is pretty important to know this as it dictates you preflop play, as if you can't get anyone to fold you are doing this for pure valooooo and no other reason. Therefore you must have a post flop plan which in this case given stacks involves never folding.

Vargas makes the 1/2 game at dtd play 1/2/12

he called a £400 reshove against me holding - [  Kd ,  x ]

Vargas is a Leicester Legend.

He would perhaps fold the 45 if it was heads up. Obv with two callers he has "value"

I didn't say I was a nit (I'm not but I love that people think I am) - I just play less hands than everyone else so my image in other player's eyes is always tight.

I was expecting one caller (Vargas), not four. The plan was to check raise Vargas but of course we never got that far.


I had kings which isn't really the point. My 3-bet from the SB was too big and once the pot got so big on the flop I left myself with no choice but to shove.

I am bound to appear tight to other players because I would never call a £45 3-bettor from the sb with a weak suited ace or pocket nines.

Not having a go, I wanted them to make such a poor call. My post really was about how even if they had all missed the flop I would still be very uncomfortably stabbing in the dark from out of position, premium hand or not.

Why would you feel uncomfortable you have a  Ks and a  Kh.

Sucks that you lost . But 45 is a good size with kk with vargas there when you're oop. AK is another matter imo.

lol. bad beat thred then.  u play one hand a millenium and get beat oh dear. cant believe i read this as u got all the action u wanted. UL

yes the hands do matter as your gettin it in for value rather then bluffing.  no one is folding so hands matter 12.4gazzilion percent

50p

  stabbing wtf.  value shoving isnt stabbing

can you lot watch the words you use please. what if someone google 'alea stabbing'?

rotflmfao

I don't quite get why we're "pot committed" on any flop?

Yes we've put £45 in which is 1/4 of our stack but we've got £135 left.

Yes we're committed against Vargas but why against the other 2?

pot is £180+ and he has £87 back according to OP so has less than half PSB left?

IMO if you are 3betting to this amount pre your plan is going to be shove a high % of flops whether 1 or more callers, unless you flop quads or something

Sorry my bad. Mis read.

He says he's looking to take it down pre or isolate Vargas. Might as well shove pre then given the dynamics of the table.

If Vargas is calling £45 he's probably calling £132. To call £45 with a marginal hand he needs another caller or 2 and then our hand is struggling in a 4 way pot.

If somebody's going to wake up with a slow played monster he's committed pre now anyway.

Ugh raising to £45 is a lot better than shoving, Vargas and other weak player will see the two raises as very different things. They don't think that calling the extra £40 is truly awful with marginal hands and will play fit or fold with or without the correct odds. Whereas if you shove they are just straight up gambling and even they realise they are doing this with the weakest hand. Ok Vargas might call anyway cos he is a loony but you are losing value long term by not letting the donks make mistakes.

Don't get me wrong I'm never shoving here.

What I'm saying is that to achieve op's objective of isolating Vargas or taking the pot down you might as well shove.

If you raise you need to make it an amount that if it doesn't isolate our target we are not committed.

If we make it £25 we get exactly the same action and have more chance of bringing Vargas along HU if we don't get the 2 other callers. We are also not committed if we get multiway.

I just hate the £45 raise.

if we are re-raising to 45 we have a hand. when we have a hand we want to make it big and shove 100% of flops. ez game.

you cant isolate or take it down pre in a vargas game that's just retarded thinking.

also with any pretty good hand I love the pf raise size :D

Why can't you isolate?

Unless there's 2 Vargas's at the table then assuming you can't isolate is ridic.

You can isolate him but no one else.

It depends on your seat relative to him. He's a betting machine use that to create lots of dead monies.

But isn't that what we want? To isolate him?

There was already dead money in the pot. Once we've been called in 3 spots for a £45 raise there isn't really any more dead money bacause no body's deep enough to isolate for you. Everybody's going to going all in.

To use Vargas for isolation purposes you need to be playing a lot less deep than him and the other players in the pot. If everyone's similar stacks you're going to end up drawn in to a gambling multiway big pot. This is great if we win it but I assume we're looking to make easy money here not money we have to sweat for?

With KK i preferably want the whole table to call pre.

 Ahrt
Meh, I was talking in general matt. With KK in the SB 45 is perfect. We got multiple calls lol

in general you want to use the dynamic he creates relative to your position. so sitting on his right really isn't that bad.

When the game is like this it's like printing money if you don't play ridiculously tight. You can limp reraise squeeze so happily trapping everyone willing to cawl his pf raise this time because he does it ever time etc. He will also call you light so you just have to widen your value range. he will fold to people who are too tight some of the time, if you give any action he just wont fold lol.

Dat's cus you is a mad gambler innit.......

why is kk really gambling


you dont sit in a game with vargas to not get brilliant equity opportunities.

EMBRACE THE VARIANCE

Thing is, Vargas WOULD fold for 132 and not for 45. The reason he calls for 45 is two others call and now he has "value" as mentioned earlier.

How many gamblers/bad players/old pro's do you here talk about value??? They think just cos they're getting a ridic price on the pot calling with Q3 is ok cos you have the odds

He wont fold for 132 every time if you play aggressively in general.

Other people dont adjust properly either and because he loosens up the game they just loosen up even against you. So bigger is better in these games imo.

Obv it depends on how he's been playing in general but 9/10 Vargas folds here. He's not as degen as he used to be

I've only ever played with him in the last 6 - 8 months.

Wow, I thought this thread was over, lol.

Yes I owe 50p; but it wasn't intended as a bad beat story.

At the table three people said what did you have - KK, AQ and 88 were the hands proffered - so I thought I'd post asking if the play works out any different with these 3 'possible' hands.

I thought my raise of £45 from the sb given my image was fine, but when I got three callers (not the expected one) it opened up a whole new debate - well, the question of can I do anything now other than shove?

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I will tread a whole lot warily against Vargas from now on, lol.

Oh, and one hand a millenium is stretching it. I'm not that tight. Although some people seem to think so (lucky me).

Well obviously answers to non bad beat type post are 88 it sucks. shove or call. AQ sucks so hard it hurts. Kk perfect if not on the small side depending on the other players.

if they will call big bets, why not bet big with big hands ldo

Oi!!  Get your own thread and stop trying to hijack this one ffs ;grr;

Why is everyone ganging up on Vargas?

We're not.

Nobody's ganging up on Vargas. I don't think anybody dislikes him one bit.

He needs to be discussed though because he brings a very specific dynamic to any table that he's playing at.

It's the same with anyone who plays very aggressively and bluffs alot you have to change the way you play against him as you would playing against someone who is stupendously tight.

Or someone who raises pre, and then open folds the flop?

:dontask:

So that's how you have 23k posts ya? ;grr;


I am the omaha king and don't you forget it!!

I have only played with Vargas a little bit but isnt £45 inviting him to get away from this.

meh. imo not in the slightest.

And it's not because it's him it's because the game is playing loose and I would exploit other people who call too much (like the people who sit in waiting for dc) etc. If they will call big bets do not be afraid to make big bets. We are just exploiting them and that's what we are in the game for no?

Definately

So when people are willing to cawl and we have the cowboys or the aces or the pocket pair sixes bet huuuuge.  ;dingdell;

AK is a hand I would hate the raise with.

I was agreeing with you above  :dontask:

Oh I know I was agreeing. I just liked that smiley.
 ;dingdell;