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OK, so trying to drop off to sleep tonight a rather large penny dropped as my mind worked over the events of the day.

I've been renting the property I'm in for two years now, and came to the end of the 2nd 12 month tenancy last month. I signed a new tenancy agreement, starting on October 10th this year, for 6 months. The reason for the shorter tenancy was that the landlord was considering selling the property next year. Anyway, didn't reallly think anything more of it, but hadn't had a copy of the fully signed (by landlord) agreement yet and hadn't got round to chasing it up.

Last week I get a text from the landlord saying that someone will be coming to value the property, and asking when it's ok for them to come round. Nothing surprising there as I know he's looking to sell at some point and probably wants to get an idea what the place is worth. So this morning I get a call direct from the estate agents to arrange a visit. They're keen to do it asap - tomorrow or Wednesday. I manage to stall them til Wednesdsay as I need to sort the place out a bit.  During the call it becomes clear that this isn't just a run of the mill valuation, and that the landlord is looking to put the property on the market.

I give the letting agents a ring to confirm that the landlord has signed the tenancy agreement that I signed last month and explain my concerns about him putting the place on the market. They say they'll look into it and call me back, but I didn't hear anything today (it was rather late in the day when I called them). At this point, I'm still not too concerned, knowing that the place is likely to be on the market for a fair while anyhow, and that I'll need to be given notice (presuming the tenancy is all sorted - not heard anything from the letting agents to suggest otherwise since last month).

It's only when I'm dropping off tonight I start to go over my call with the estate agents and realise some of the questions they were asking me were a little bit odd, not to mention their sense of urgency. I listen back to a voicmail message they left me this afternoon which I'd not properly taken in before, and realise they are actually a property auctioneering company. A quick glance on their website shows that next auction is on 7 December with property details available to the public this Friday (20th November). I'm pretty sure now he's looking to get the place listed for that auction.

So where does that leave me as a tenant? Presumably whether or not he's signed up to the new agreement he'll still need to give me some form of notice in accordance with the previous agreement?

I'll pop over to the letting agents tomorrow to see what the deal is obviously. I am concerned about the tenancy thing though - I've currently got a claim for housing benefit in and not having a current tenancy agreement is going to be a big problem.

I'm in two minds about what to do about the valuation? Should I refuse to let them in to the property do you think? Also pretty pissed off with the landlord for the lack of communication too.

Worst case scenario, the place goes to auction on 7 December and someone buys it. Are they within their rights then to just turf me out immediately - I've obviously got no contract with the new owner.

Sorry for the waffle, just getting it out of my head really, but if anyone does have any words of advice, then I'd be grateful - I'm crap at all this stuff.

My son just signed an assurred short term tenancy today. I did have a good read and one thing we asked was if the landlord sells, what happens.

They said we have to be given 2 months notice, If the new owners want you to move out.

hope that helps

prop would have to be marketed and sold as "With sitting tenant"

don't take this as gospel but it's my understanding

if the (new) owner wants to occupy the flat as their main property then they can by giving you notice of however long is set out in your contract, probs 2 months

if they don't want to move in and use it as their main property then it's pretty hard to get you out if you've always paid on time and caused no problems

if they do serve you notice it needs to be done in accordance with this which I cba to read but may have something useful in it-

196 Regulations respecting notices

(1)Any notice required or authorised to be served or given by this Act shall be in writing.

(2)Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served on a lessee or mortgagor shall be sufficient, although only addressed to the lessee or mortgagor by that designation, without his name, or generally to the persons interested, without any name, and notwithstanding that any person to be affected by the notice is absent, under disability, unborn, or unascertained.

(3)Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served shall be sufficiently served if it is left at the last-known place of abode or business in the United Kingdom of the lessee, lessor, mortgagee, mortgagor, or other person to be served, or, in case of a notice required or authorised to be served on a lessee or mortgagor, is affixed or left for him on the land or any house or building comprised in the lease or mortgage, or, in case of a mining lease, is left for the lessee at the office or counting-house of the mine.

(4)Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served shall also be sufficiently served, if it is sent by post in a registered letter addressed to the lessee, lessor, mortgagee, mortgagor, or other person to be served, by name, at the aforesaid place of abode or business, office, or counting-house, and if that letter is not returned [F1by the postal operator (within the meaning of the Postal Services Act 2000) concerned] undelivered; and that service shall be deemed to be made at the time at which the registered letter would in the ordinary course be delivered.

(5)The provisions of this section shall extend to notices required to be served by any instrument affecting property executed or coming into operation after the commencement of this Act unless a contrary intention appears.

(6)This section does not apply to notices served in proceedings in the court.
Annotations:
Amendments (Textual)

F1Words in s. 196(4) substituted (26.3.2001) by S.I. 2001/1149, art. 3(1), Sch 1 para. 7
Modifications etc. (not altering text)

C1S. 196 extended by Leasehold Property (Repairs) Act 1938 (c. 34), s. 7(2); applied by Reserve and Auxiliary Forces (Protection of Civil Interests) Act 1951 (c. 65), s. 29(6)

C2S. 196(3)(4) modified by Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 (c. 31, SIF 75:1), s. 49

C3S. 196(4) amended by Recorded Delivery Service Act 1962 (c. 27), s. 1, Sch.

thanks. my real concern at the minute is if he hasn't signed the new tenancy agreement. given that i'm still living here and paying rent, it is just assumed that the tenancy continues on the same terms as before and notice periods etc are the same, does anyone know?

btw, for this bit to apply you would have to have received notification in writing that this was a possibility BEFORE your tenancy started. if it's not in your agreement then they can't do it and even if it is it's unlikely they'd get away with it with a new owner

do you have a shorthold tenancy agreement or an assured shorthold?

well atm I'm not sure If I have any agreement! Looking at last years agreement (and the one which I thought started last month would be on the same terms) it's an assured shorthold tenancy. Gonna have a read of it now.

Is a standard clause in most leases I think. Obv things could be different in Scotland tho

My mum used to work for a letting agent and her friend still does, I'll ask tomorrow what the low down is.

nah, it's standard in england and wales too but doesn't mean it's in 100% of agreements

shouldn't really matter though as to get someone out who has an assured shorthold the owner would have to convince a judge that they need to move into the property. as any new owner should be aware that there's a sitting tenant the judge would just tell them to gtfo as they should've bought an empty place if they wanted to live there.

worst case you get a crazy judge who agrees and you get 2 months notice

just gone through it - there's nothing in there about if he wants to sell up, or letting agents in etc. The only thing it says about granting access to the property is 'to allow anyone with the landlord's written authority to enter the property at reasonable times of the day to inspect it's condition and state of repair, if hte landlord has given 24 hours written notice beforehand'

The only contact at all I have had from the landlord since I signed the new tenancy in October is a text message saying 'I need to get the property valued, when can they pop round?'

I'm gonna ring the auction bods tomorrow and find out what the score is - I think they just presumed when they spoke to me that I knew wtf was going on. Should I let them in Wednesday as agreed?

cheers Bongo

yeah, you could be awkward and demand written notice but it's pretty pointless

have a read of this http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/assuredassuredtenants

already have that open in another window :D

Found myself in the same position a year or so ago, one morning I looked out of my window to see a for sale sign.

You should have a MINIMUM of two months notice from the date you were notified that the place was for sale and you had to leave. This is the case even if the tenancy has come to its contractual end and you are now on a rolling basis. You can actually more than likely extend this period if you kick up a fuss. Also you are under no obligation to let them in to show anyone around.

In my situation we were so incensed that the for sale sign went up and we found out that way, rather than being notified, that we moved out almost immediately (to the flat next door as it happens, so it was a really easy move) and as a result the landlord went without rent for the 9 months they were trying to sell it.

Also - you could go to the property auction and make sure people know that there's a sitting tenant maybe?

Generally it's very hard to legally get rid of tenants, so I think it's probably right that at worse you'll have a couple of months notice after the auction.

Common Law is as follows:

Latest 6 month agreement

If you dont have a signed copy assume it doesnt exist as clearly he isnt going to sign it.

Previous contract

The previous contract will still exist. Although they are for 6/12 month terms, the contract does not cease to exist, but continues as a rolling contract. So if you pay monthly, you will have a monthly rolling contract.

I am not sure why everyone seems so certain about you getting 2 months notice? You will get 1 months notice, plus the balance of the month that you have currently paid for.

Jon MW - its not that hard to remove a tenant when they are under the terms of a contract.


As an aside - if he is selling the property at auction and it has happened this quickly, it sounds like a distressed sale.

On a positive note, people who buy at auction are frequently investors and are usually happy to keep tenants who have been trouble free and not missed any rent.

I wouldnt start to worry just yet. If the auction is 7 December and he hasnt served notice already -it suggest that you wont get notice until the property is sold. Even then, if it is an investor purchase you should be OK. One thing you should ensure is that the auction particulars refer to your tenancy. This should help to scare off most amateurs

PM me if you want advice.

G

my understanding of contract law is that if Clare has signed a copy of the contract, then a contract has been offered, and by her paying of the rent, and the landlord accepting the rent means that there is implied acceptance of the contract.

also, its been a long time since i was a slum landlord :) butit used to be the case that there was no notice peiod in an ASHT.

Thanks everyone. I'm in a bit of a mess this morning. It's no secret that I suffer with an anxiety related illness, and I've been doing well over the last few months, but just feel like I've been hit by a juggernaut and about to break down. Times like this I hate myself for being so weak - I should be sorting this out but I'm too bloody useless. Tried to ring the auctioneers to find out what the deal is but no answer. The letting agents don't open til 10 I don't think. I've had two hours sleep, and really need to get the place sorted out ready for these guys coming tomorrow morning, but I just don't have the energy. It really sucks being this crap.

you are right in terms of offer/acceptance and consideration, however if there is no proof of the contract, there is no proof of the offer etc etc

ive sent a PM - happy to help

An Assured Shorthold Tenancy is generally for 6/12 months and then rolls over to a position where the Tenant can move out on ONE month notice, but the Landlord is required to give TWO months notice to quit.

Your Local Authority Housing Department may be a useful contact point...

A new owner doesn't automatically mean that you get served notice anyway - indeed, the fact that there is a tenant in place might be an attraction to the buyer. In the current marketplace there seems to be more properties to rent than there are tenants.

Section 21 deals with the 2 months notice for the landlord to take possession;

http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/section-21-notice-to-quit.htm

Forget getting the place ready and concentrate on yourself.

apologies for my earlier melodramatic outburst. It's a struggle to put things in perspective sometimes when i'm feeling wound up like that. My ex husband, who has been incredibly supportive of me whilst I've been ill, has been on the phone this morning for me finding out what's going on. I've had about 5 cigs already, and feeling a bit more relaxed. Probably just as well I couldn't find the diazepam prescription that's been lying around the place for ages in a 'break glass in case of emergency' kind of way. Cup of tea will do instead. Going to get the place looking presentable now, take the rest as it comes, and try not to be so much of a basket case.

Clare, not easy but try and relax. As has been said, generally in these situations you have a lot of rights....but you probably need to get professional help...ie Citizen advice bureau/legal helpline, as well as blonde!
Certainly don't bother sorting the place for anyone!

http://www.swarb.co.uk/phpbb/

(reccommended forum from moneysavingexpert.com)......half way down is landlord/tenant law

I wouldnt waste my time worrying about what and when he is doing and what notice you will get.
I would be on the phone to the letting agent asking what properties I could view this afternoon.

Tell the new landlord,

The boiler needs replacing, the front door is drafty, the widows need better double glazing, the cooker needs changing

Or , he can lower the rent by £100 a month,let him choose which

 :D :D :)up ;)

The crow. . . .

She isn't trying to induce the notice

just out of interest how much do 2 bed flats rent for around your way?

average £900. Everything the Crow said is true of my flat, except it doesn't have double glazing at all - original shitty windows ftw. I only pay £700.

move to leeds, i live in a two bedroom house(both doubles), 3 car drive decent garden for less than that!

wow £900 quid...£150k mortgage that.

u actually work and rent? u must be divorced lol..

i should have bought in 2007 like everybody told me, nowt as safe as houses.

i get a good discount on my rent as the landlord owed me a favour.  not sure if it will continue next year tho...

I'm not sure that the landlord didn't sign the agreement is an issue.

I have never signed any of the rental agreements for my property as the agent does it on my behalf - he is my agent and therefore acts on my behalf, when the new tennant comes in and signs up I'm not there and they sign on my behalf. As he is using an agent I'm sure it's legally the same. They got the docs back from you and as such the agreement has been struck.

You still need 2 months notice and I would advise the auction company of that - nothing wrong with stirring it a bit as it seems like at the end of the current rental period you will have to be moving in any case.

I would then be causing a row and saying you are being evicted illegally etc etc just to stir it up again at the agents side. Have fun with it Clare - they are in the wrong - you are in the right. If things work out you could negotiate the landlord paying for a few months rent for you elsewhere to get you out early.

I had a chat with the (incidentally, very hot) guy that came round to value the place today. He said that the property will be auctioned as having a tenant in, and they are aware that I've only just signed a new agreement.

Claire/Anyone - Hijack question!

Not sure if this has already been answered, but we are moving out of our flat on the 21st Jan,  2 weeks ish, estate agent phoned just now asking to view the place tomorrow.  Now the place is upside because we're moving, can we say no until we've moved out?

Alos, when they say 'viewing', do they mean with a potential tenant, or will it be just someone from the estate agents?  Don't particulary want anyone snooping around...

the govt's guide to shorthold tenancies has this as the only right to access for a landlord

4.3 What rights does the landlord have?
Access
The landlord, or landlord’s agent, has the legal right to enter the property at
reasonable times of day to carry out the repairs for which he or she is responsible
and to inspect the condition and state of repair of the property. 24 hours’ written
notice of an inspection must be given. You should ask the landlord to set out in
the tenancy agreement the arrangements for access and procedures for getting
repairs done.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pdf/138289.pdf

Yes, 'viewing' means 'with a potential tenant'.

Think of it from the landlord's point of view. If you're moving out on the 21st, they'll want someone else in paying rent from on or as soon after 22nd Jan as possible.

Just tidy up a bit and put the big dildos at the back of a drawer so they won't be spotted.

Ok thanks, no dildo's, only sheep...

Sometimes the agreement will say you have to give access for viewings a few weeks before moving out. Would seem reasonable, as any landlord wouldn't want a period of it being empty, and you as a potential tenant wouldn't have to wait to view a property.

I rent a few properties and this is the kind of crap that really annoys me. You expect a landlord to lose out financially just because the place is "upside down" and you don't want anyone snooping around. If your willing to pay for the period between you leaving and the time it takes to get a new tenant then fine I'll wait just because you can't be arsed to clean up or paranoid that I so interested in rifling though your private stuff. As a landlord I don't really care if the place is messy as long as I can show people round and minimise the period it is vacant. I can explain the mess as you guys are leaving and being slobs. I will also explain it will be cleaned up before anybody else moves in. If you have caused damage then you are liable. I just caught one tenant trying to do a runner owing me hundreds having through the brand new carpet was an ashtray. On this occasion I caught him and have withheld his property and told the thug he subsequently sent round to threaten me to FO.

I know some landlords take the piss but some tenants and their demands are a joke.