blonde poker forum

We have worked within the gaming industry for several years and share many of the player’s frustration with the way U/K casinos sometimes operate. Two years ago we decided to stop promoting events in the U/K as we could not convince the casinos to promote poker in a way that would ensure players attended on a regular basis. We understand that they make their revenue from the gaming tables and that poker too many of them is a necessary evil. However it is our experience that a casino that runs as an entertainment centre providing diverse and interesting events for the general public who will ultimately gain the most in the long term.

We work with many sites and take hundreds of players to the WSOP booking the hotels and pre registering them for all the events, this year we are busier than ever and many players are approaching us on an individual basis to sort the trip for them, so there are plenty of players with a decent bankroll. We asked them what they think was missing from the U/K and researched our Poker in the Pub players as well.

We decided to launch the Masters experience this year as we felt the change in legislation allowing us to do a roadshow would create a great opportunity to have a weekend of poker where the sites could promote their products, players could learn new skills via an academy and the local casino could put on a series of low stakes events that would fit many player budgets. Despite all of our research and marketing we did not sell enough tickets for the academy, we are also seeing very poor attendance in the casino so far this week for the poker events.

I know times are very tough and budgets are tight but I am amazed at the small turnout in a city like Manchester. We have certainly posted enough on forums, facebook twitter etc and have put posters up and carried out leaflet drops and PR across the city. I know many players might not like some of the structure but this is set by the casino, is this the main reason why players will not attend?  Is it the casino? Lack of funds?  Or is it simply that you will not fill a tournament unless there has been several online qualifiers to create a decent starting number.

For us to continue to look at poker festivals we need to understand whether there are too many events and not enough players to fill them. I am confident that the roadshow will grow in the coming years and working with TIPS and other speakers we will create an educational series of poker academies to go with it. I would like to know what poker tournaments to put alongside these events. I believed that Manchester had a large enough community to fill such a small tournament and this is not proving to be the case. Tournaments are not profitable and so running one outside of a casino is not likely to happen.

Thanks in advance for your input

Dave

Didnt know what it was till clicked on link- so advertising not that good first off.

You are inbetween markets- people that will benefit from this will not and cannot pay £200 for 2 days.

You should either aim for pub players and charge £100 for 2 days or if you actually want to aim at professionals then try and shoot for the hoops and charge £1500 for 2 days but obviously would have to make some drastic changes to everything it is about in order for that to work.

Basically u arent aiming at a specific part of the market. Id just cut prices, provide a buffet, few free beers and let the animals happily roam for a couple of days and have fun whilst not really learning anything.

Is this the one where there was a £200 buyin with the blinds doubling every 20 minutes?

did you see this feedback on the other thread Dave?

two posts as follows

acc2020

Went on Monday to play the satellite to the main event. There was only 2 players. After asking about 50 roulette and blackjack players it got up to 7 players which did not meet the 10 player minimum requirement so no game went ahead.After a meal i came back at 7.30pm to play in the 8pm tournament on day 2 of the Masters Poker Festival. I sat in the card room from 7.30 to 8.30 pm and not one person came through the door not even a member of staff. There wasn't even a representative of The Masters of Poker Academy.

The festival if you can call it that is a complete shambles.I'm sure it has been many months in the planning , i was told about it by the cardroom supervisor back in January , but very little has been done to promote the event by The Masters of Poker Academy and also Stanley Casinos.As of Tueday 16Th March there has been no amendment on T.M.O.P.A website in regards to the cancellation of this weekends events even though a post was put up on here on the 12Th March . There has been nothing on the Stanley Casino website too only a tiny bit of text stating their regular games.

I recall only just last October where Liverpool Stanley Circus ( less than 1 hrs drive away )had their Winter Festival which was over 6 months in the planning and only attracted 27 players on day 1a and 25 players on day 1b a total of 52 players of the £500 main event.It seems to me Stanley don't care about their poker.One week later in Blackpool ( less than 1 hrs drive away) the Grosvenor festival attracted over 1000 entries over the week and the cash tables were hectic.

It was the same when Grosvenor had their festival in Manchester last April. There are plenty of poker players in Manchester especially at the smaller stakes ,the Manchester G attracts over 120 players when they hold their cheap nights twice a week.So not getting the information across in a city as big as Manchester is piss poor especially when Stanley's have many busy cardrooms close by in the northwest.

I predict the the Irish open qualifier £125+10 on 19Th march will be a flop not enough entries will generate one single seat. And in the £250 main event there will be less than 10 mostly made up of the Masters of Poker associates if they bother turning up.
   
acc2020
   
Re: The Masters Poker Academy

Another point , who designed the structure of the comps? Can't be a Poker Master.

Satellite ..................................2000 chips 50/100blinds doubling every 15 mins
Irish open qualifier125+10....... 5000 chips 50/100blinds doubling every 30 mins for levels 1+2 then doubling every
                                             20mins thereafter
Main event £250+25................10000 chips 50/100 blinds doubling every 30 mins for levels 1+2 then doubling every
                                             20 mins thereafter
£100+100 PLH/PLO.................5000 chips 50 /100 blinds doubling every 30 mins levels 1+2 then doubling every 20
                                             mins thereafter

I expect this structure when i play £30 , £20 and £10 comps but for £100+ is dreadful.Also they double every 20 mins and not go up in the usual increments like 200/400 then 300/600 etc...

Rant over

In terms of the academy, you chose the wrong people.

The old guard don't command that much respect. The reality is that all the kids who are crushing it chat to one another and are way ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they could teach, just that they play great.

Like dubai said, you need to define your market place better. I think less experienced older players who almost exclusively play live will be your target audience. Then price and market accordingly

Thanks for the input, I am sure there are many different views on who will attend seminars and I will definitely take everyones comments on board.

I will be at the trade show now for four days so I may not reply until next week but please keep the comments coming as we would still like to put on another Masters in September and want to ensure we position things better next time. The casino issue is something I know I will have to address and will review accordingly.

Dave

Not sure I agree.  Some of the 'old guard' would be great for this sort of thing.  It's not always about getting the best to teach, and it's not always about learning that last 5% that separates the top guys.  It's stuff that lots of people can teach, people can learn a little, and they can take some fun from it.

From the sound of things it's the tournies that were lacking.

i wouldnt pay what they were asking to listen to their tutors when you can get a years worth of subscription to PXF or similar for the same money and learn much more from better players

I would have thought having big names would be the best way to attract people to this kind of thing initially. I doubt someone like the Devilfish would be as good as the people who were lined up from a teaching point of view but it would get people through the door and sell the product.

The people you are going to attract to this thing aren't the people who know who Phil Galfond etc is.

you are kind of making my point,

therefore they should be more specific as to who they are targetting

I dont think many people who frequent a forum such as this would attend a seminar like that, correct me if Im wrong?

I for one would rather pay £200 for 10 minutes with certain players of this forum over attending any of the Masters / TIPS seminars. Luckily we dont have to, post a hand on PHA and watch it get ripped to pieces and dissected with a bit of free abuse thrown in for good value.

Surely these seminars would have a bigger target market of begginers?

I think the casino issue will be a huge problem if you cant dictate the structures etc. I know for a fact that one of the big casino groups really do refer to poker players as an inconvenience, and with 60% of the players I think this description is justified.

There is a wealth of tournaments to choose from, and as DTD proves every weekend there are more than enough players to fill them. You just have to attract them with a tasty guarantee, good structure and excellent smooth running.

I don't think you're their target market to be fair though.

So what is their target market?

i know - its old guys who only play live, new players etc - like i said earlier

My personal opinion is most poker players think that they already know it all and couldn't possibly benefit from any coaching, as they are already better than the majority of other players. I think most of us are very good at over rating ourselves, harsh but true............

these things just seem so unfocused. come and listen to some bloke talk about poker. hmm great. ebooks are coming out now as tightly focused as how to beat 100NL, 200NL, 1000NL etc. videos and strat forums obv are the same.

Definately agree with this.

Everyones a winner
Everyone could have played it better
Everyone knows everything, and the best way to do it
Everyone is better than everyone they meet......

apart from me, Im shit, and I like it.

A lot of recreational players who don't spend too much time online.  Maybe poker in the pub players, some APATers, those who watch Sky Poker regularly, etc. 

If you were an amateur photographer, would there be any harm in you going to a photography class run by someone who knows their stuff because they've got a fair bit of experience and have made a living from it, even though there are far better photographers out there?

I think £200 would be a lot for pub players, and the majority of apat/sky players?

Just using your example, would you not class photography as a subject much more suited to being taught, with the teachings and teachers worthyness being much more easily measured?

Also if he is making a happy living from taking photo's why does he want to teach me his tricks?

Not saying it's not a lot to them.  But a fun day, and they might learn a bit (or even feel like they've learned loads) and it's worthwhile.

Why do they want to teach?  There are lots of reasons.  They get paid for it.  It makes a change from the usual work (that they might have been doing for decades).  If you were going to learn karate, would you question why the karate instructor was teaching a class and not studying for those few hours?

As for the photography - a day course with a great photographer probably isn't the best way to learn - but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad way.

I'm only a recreational player donator and I would probably benefit from something like this... but for me to spend my money on this I would rather it be endorsed/backed/sponsored by a trusted poker name such as Blonde/DTD.
No disrespect meant to the Masters Poker Academy but I've not previously heard of you.

This is just my opinion but I'm confident that other players such as myself would feel the same.

+2


your marketplace is saturated and no offence but if i wanted to learn how to beat tournament poker in 2010 it would cost a whole lot more than £200.
stick a gaurantee on the tournament and give it a decent structure, then include the tournament into the whole coaching experience, plus from the feedback it appears actually having a rep in the venue would be pretty neat.

Might be an idea to try and tie-in with a brand that has already established itself with the sort of target market you're aiming at?  Someone like Sky or APAT, or one of the online poker rooms?

Similar to what bobalike suggested.

In regards to the festival the Manchester Circus is definitely the wrong venue.I went in there at 8.30pm hoping to join the 8pm tournament , however it had not started as there was only 4 registered. I don't know whether a game commenced or not.I ended up in the Manchester G where there was almost a full house as usual.

The Circus does not attract many runners usually 2 tables sometimes one , normally made up of 90% university students.
Grosvenor Riverside  ( 1 mile away ) 3 to 4 tables
Salford Mint ( 2 miles away ) 4 to 6 tables
Grosvenor G ( 1 mile away ) 5 to 16 tables 
Grosvenor Soames and Tiberius ( both few yards away ) 2 cash tables , no tournies.
Manchester 235 ( 1/4 mile away ) cash poker

As you can see there are plenty of casinos in the city of Manchester , the Circus being the worst in terms of tournament runners. It was busy a couple of years ago but the management upset a few of the big players and the players took the game out of town.It went from 90+ runners to under 20 runners.

If you used the Grosvenor G as the venue  i'm sure you would have attracted over 100 runners in your cheap festival games , with a similar figure for the £250 main event.For the Pokerstars main event last month they got over 500.If you had promotional material at this venue i'm sure you would have a lot of interest for your seminars , even more had you pitched the price a little lower.

A major problem was that the information was not put across to poker players.All i saw was a few leaflets in a casino where poker is almost non existant.Advertising in the many poker publications would have done the trick too , albeit at a high outlay.

Also if you are having a festival why was there no representative present or a tournament director?

I think the website set up to promote this was not really that good. A couple of observations:

Timings

You're not clear when it all takes place. You offer individual sessions at £25, but if someone wanted to come along to just, say, the omaha session you're not telling them what time that will be, who the speaker is, and what it's intended to achieve. So it all looked a bit unclear to me if I'd just wanted to pop along for part of the day. I think a scedule - arrival time, time of sessions etc helps people picture in their mind what they are paying for.

Speakers

Advertising an event for £200 and then saying "if anyone wants to be a speaker let us know" suggests the day is not fully complete. By all means search out additional speakers, but I think you'd be better off doing that away from the site asking people to spend their money.

I think there is a market for this type of event but promotion is everything - I expect if Sky Poker offered one they'd be full pretty quickly. That also highlights another challenge, as places like Sky, APAT, Blonde all have thriving forums where people know each other and will  tend to self promote events like this.

Unless there is some other site I am missing I do believe this was poorly marketed and you should look at that closely if you want to repeat.

Good luck with the venture.

Becoming a karate instructor is part of the learning process and in theory your progress as an instructor is monitored by those above you.
Becoming a poker instructor probably doesnt involve the same growth for the instructor, they also have no one watching to evaluate the quality of their instructing.

Which I actually think is an interestingly suitable comparison. ;)

Nah, you don't have to instruct to grade or get higher belts.  It's just that those who have experience seem to want to pass it on (for financial reasons too).  Also, there are loads of karate instructors who aren't evaluated - in fact there's nothing stopping you starting up a weekend course and charging £200 for students.  You can say you're a black belt at this and that, and there's no governing body to say you are or aren't what you say you are.

People still attend these sorts of courses, or clubs where the instructors aren't particularly good. 

Depends on where you train.

I agree with Guy

Plus Manchester is a bit of a wierd choice and if it was at the G it has an increasingly bad rep and players are not going there anymore.  Why don't you do it somewhere more central like Aberdeen or something.

Poker academy's are shit tbh. I went to one once and it was a laugh because of the people there but did i learn anything? did i balls.

One to one with other players, books, studying yours and others play are how you learn poker. The average low stakes casino player is not the kind of person who goes and sits in a seminar voluntarily very often.