blonde poker forum

OK bit of background. I've been opening a fair bit- 3 betting also but nothing out of the ordinary.

Villian has been peeling a LOT showing down hands OOP like J10, Q10 etc so obv likes his broadway cards and probably over values then. Bearing all this in mind is this bluff clever? Will it work against capables or does my line make no sense? I'm obv turning my hand into a bluff because I think he likely has a weak diamond

Full Tilt Poker Game #19531506022: $60,000 Guarantee (144400808), Table 29 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:36:24 ET - 2010/03/24
Seat 1: neilblue (27,702)
Seat 2: InescapableD (14,108)
Seat 3: etirow (38,036)
Seat 4: taylor_smiley (65,052)
Seat 5: George2Loose (24,648)
Seat 6: colrolsteel (30,346)
Seat 7: bastard88 (33,977)
Seat 9: augie00 (17,261)
neilblue antes 125
InescapableD antes 125
etirow antes 125
taylor_smiley antes 125
George2Loose antes 125
colrolsteel antes 125
bastard88 antes 125
augie00 antes 125
colrolsteel posts the small blind of 500
bastard88 posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to George2Loose [Ah 2h]
Helias1 sits down
Helias1 adds 14,322
augie00 has 15 seconds left to act
augie00 folds
neilblue folds
InescapableD has 15 seconds left to act
InescapableD folds
etirow folds
taylor_smiley folds
George2Loose raises to 2,440
colrolsteel folds
bastard88 calls 1,440
*** FLOP *** [Jd Ad 8d]
bastard88 checks
George2Loose checks
*** TURN *** [Jd Ad 8d] [3d]
bastard88 checks
George2Loose bets 2,500
bastard88 calls 2,500
*** RIVER *** [Jd Ad 8d 3d] [As]
bastard88 has 15 seconds left to act
bastard88 bets 3,500
George2Loose has 15 seconds left to act
George2Loose raises to 19,583, and is all in

If he likes his broadway cards what makes you think he has a weak diamond?

His river bet mainly has lead me to think he's betting pretty weak. I just don't know whether my line looks like nut flushes/boats


U would have folded pre wouldn't u Matt?  ::)

Of course :)

He goes check, check and calls your small bet. Hardly a strong looking line.

He seems to want a cheap show down so why does he come out firing the river when it pairs up?

I'd be more concerned about his line than your own. It just doesn't add up.

I guess he could be floating the turn with air but if that's the case we should just do a call.

I can't see him value betting here with a weak flush so it's either big flush, house or air. Either way you're shove doesn't achieve much.

Do you not think he bets bigger with air?

I dunno man, what exactly are you trying to rep.

Any conceivable full house you could have doesn't take your line, and will he really buy that you checked the flop with the Kd? You would flat with the Qd/Jd etc.

Perhaps this stuff only matters if villain is a thinking player. I guess you have to hope he has a diamond a 7 or lower, because then you do win a pot you wouldn't have if you'd have called, but the 9d-Kd should snap you off here really.

[ ] Average online player will care what you could have or what your repping

[ x ] Average online player will see his cards and bet / raise / call solely on this

Whilst I agree with this to some extent, I still think what we are repping is pertinent to any hand...

I spose the check on the flop is inconsistent with my whole line. Im probably only repping the flopped flush. It was just his line that lead me to bluff here

This could be a blocker bet with a bad ace by him. Its not a great play but it SHOULD remove any plays that you have without nut hands.

I kinda don't mind your play. I can't see a hand he can call with except a big D and even then he might hate life. (just cant see him having a boat  - maybe 33 - but thats just unlucky),

Villain dependant play for me, but I just call on the end cause I'm bad

You keep talking about how your line looks and what you're repping but have you stopped to consider that your oppo might not have a clue about any of that?

If you opr him you'll see he's only played 46 comps. There could be reasons for this obviously but let's just assume it means he hasn't played much.

Chances are he's got something, probably a little diamond. Chances are he thinks he's winning. Chances are that when you shove he'll snap rather than stop to think what you might actually have that's beating him.

Just call.

You're giving him too much credit with the 50/50

He'll snap  Kd

50 50 would be  Td

I think people are having "dubai" syndrome here

Most villains just dont think that deeply about hands - so dont give them too much credit unless they deserve it

A raise on the end here from George has to look strong.

The villain will snap with Kd. I think he is going to show up with a smaller diamond or a carppy A.

So why does he bet the river? - to pick up a pot which george has played weird - yeah maybe. But his bet on the end looks as weird as Georges line to me.

I still think that he has a bad A or crappy D and therefore this bet should work alot of the time against a poor player.

George are we anywhere near the money or are there any other considerations in the hand?

Why didn't you bet the flop out of interest?  Enough hands in villians range that you beat (given read) that would continue (gutshots and Jx with diamond etc)... seems like a good spot to continue betting? Not ideal if he c/r's but cant see it being terrible getting 24bb in here, given all the big draws he can have?

villain can c/r all in with nothing and George prob doesnt want to have to call

Sry bud, but I dont know what you mean here?

So rather than have Dubai syndrome let's give oppo a bit of credit and assume he's a good player.

Any chance he could be betting here to induce a bluff?

Our line doesn't look too strong so if he hits big on the river he's going to struggle to get paid.

So he bets really small hoping that we call with a weak holding because he's made it so cheap. He's also assessed our line and realised that if he's lucky we may be setting up a bluff on the river and now he's set the trap for us.

FWIW - dubai syndrome was very much a compliment to dubai - but he often gives opponents too much credit imo

Tmar - i dont think george is happy getting it in to a check raise flop bet with his holding - the villain on the other hand would happily do this with any big D or even air is he was of that mindset

Isn't that an argument for getting it in?

i think this is a fold preflop, ur hand is never gona play great postflop and you are gona be in a lot of marginal spots like this. Im sure there are better spots (dead money) to pick than this. think you are gona get snapped a high % of the time. How often are u and villian going to showdown?

We've got an ace and there's only us and 2 other players left.

We are probably ahead.

We don't like folding when we are probably ahead.

The hand might not play great post flop but we have position so that can be offset.

There won't be many better dead money spots than when it folds round to our button.

We aren't often expecting to get to showdown. We are expecting to win it well before then without anyone ever seeing our cards.

Anyway where is dubai when you need his over analysed genius!

Donating to ME at the GUKPT Vic.

Just lost half his stack apparently - woul love to see Dave win a ME of one of the legs.

I back dubai live btw

i know where you are coming from evil with regards to position, but george is only 24bbs at the start of the hand with 21-22k on the flop with 6k in the middle after villian calls, i think the valuee of position here is over rated here when the stacks are this shallow, also if the guy is half decent he is going to be 3betting a lot in this spot, aswell as flatting with a lot of hands that have us crushed.

Open shipping is plus ev but not a play I like

Gribbo I can't agree with your thinking. I would consider calling a 3 bet jam never mind just raising

If we think oppo might 3 bet light we should be raising A2s to induce the shove.

Position isn't as important when you're not deep but 24 bigs is deep enough to see a flop and have decisions on the streets.

Would much rather have those decisions on the button.

TBH I don't like opening with Ace rag in LP but like all tourney noobs feel compelled too. Plus I wasn't getting 3 bet too much when opening from LP so was opening a fair amount

you have the button and a suited Ace i don't think pre is even debateable vs randoms.

however, you rep absolutely f all on river george wp

I'll send you the bill then.

i dunno if line is very solid. would we ever bet 2 pair/sets on the turn? or would we check back with intention of binking/reavaluating with stack sizes.

oh yeah and this. completely standard especially given the fact you said you hadn't been 3bet.

haha

river betsizing is pretty tez imo george, 10900 does the same thing.

dont particularly like it because if villain is a donk or decent hes snapping you with a d. one of the first george hands i didnt like, you must be getting good.

This is a very important point. We can confidently bet here and fold to a shove.

Unless oppo knows that we are a bet / folder we can never be exploited here.

I don't like this line. If the river become a brick I would like it better, but instead it paired the board.

What are you trying to make him fold here? Your hand kinda has some showdown value, so you must think you are beat? Pretty sure you would be betting the Kd on the flop ... Same as if you had a set or two pair you would also be betting the flop.. Your line doesn't make sense imo..

It could be more believable to be a house if say, you bet the flop and check back turn before playing river same way.

I think I really just got caught up with his bet sizing on the river rather then my entire line in the whole hand. I spose against worse players I can get away with it but anyone half decent probably snaps me with a flush

problem is alot of players will just call u bcos they play their cards. and then some can actually hand read and call too.

really dont think bet/folding the flop is that bad tbh

Can I ask why bet/fold is better than bet/call on flop?

I haven't stoved it, but we prob no worse than flipping against his flop check/shove range, so wouldn't folding be bad given pot odds?

Dont play these stakes, so may be off with range but be interested to hear your thoughts

Ta

meh, just looked at hand again... i guess bet / calling is ok actually... getting it in vs a ton of one pair / flush draw combos is likely. Either way i think you have to bet the flop. I mean if he decides to lead the turn.. (on a diamond or non diamond for tht matter), i think ur guessing.
so, bet/ call flop and hoooooooooold.
or, bet fold flop and get it in betterrrrrrr

Great post again lots of POV's, so from  a fish:

I c bet flop, to see where i am, i expect he has out flopped me but i want to know, i too probably try to buy the pot on the River has hos bet does look weak ( notes dependant), i aslo try to use just enough chips to get the info and obv can ld if shoved after i raise his weak river bet.

What buy in is this George? Most i play ($5  $11  Buy in ) will call holding any Dia on the river.

ANY flop holding 2 sooted connectors scares the death out of me coz they always seem to get there or have it :)

I rarely see such thinking play at my levels or am i just not thinking my self ??

Steve