blonde poker forum

Ok, so starting table of manc 1k event today. Table was pretty soft, and had like 5 limpers a pot on average.
One guy who i dont think i had ever played before (didnt recognise at all) was very active early, playing decent though (iso'ing limpers, value betting very well etc).
I hadnt played many hands and had no showdowns but had chipped to about 18k from 15k starting stack. (before hand my opponent had 19k-20k ish)

I open utg to 150 @ 25/50 with  Kd Kh.
It gets flatted by the most active player at the table, and the villain then makes it 600 on the button.
I 4bet it pretty quickly to 1850.
Villain SNAP peels my 4bet.

FLOP  Kc  Td  3c    yeh yeh, mbn etc

I bet 1500 at about 4k. (maybe too small IDK)

He beats me into the pot with a call ?!?!?!?!?  SIGNIFICANT? am i ruleing out TT now as surely he at least considers raising?

TURN  7c

I thought for a few seconds and checked. (maybe better to bet bet IDK). He snap bet 3K into about 7k. ?!??!?!

I called.

River  Jh

I checked, and he SNAP put all his chips in one pile and moved in for about 13k which is full pot. I have about 11-12k back.

Pretty sure every street can be played differently, but my thoughts at the time were that the only worse hands he can value shove are JJ and TT.. but the fact he snapped the flop (instead of at least tanking for a moment) meant i ruled out TT, and the fact he bet the turn instead if checking back, kinda meant i ruled out JJ (has to check back on turn?)

My flop bet was small and i guess he could have a random float, but surely i only beat a random float here?  Ac Qx has to be a decent part of his range here IMO?
The fact he peeled my 4bet means i cant think he is good enough to be turning like  Ac Jx into a bluff on the river. So i lose to flushes, and AQ.
While i was tanking the river (maybe 4 minutes) he called a clock on me which i was pretty annoyed about (its a £1k event, maybe 40 minutes into the comp, with a potential 38k pot at 25/50).
Is the clock call strong allways???

Spoke to middy, leknave and bram about this at dinner, and them guys are kinda split on the hand.. i dont post many hands here, but i think this hand is quite interesting as it can (arguably should) be played different on 1/2/3/4 streets!

Other factors are that the table is pretty soft and if i fold i still have over 200bb!
hmmmm??!?!????

Sick spot...

Think you should bet more like 2.5k-3k on the flop.

Folding river kinda sucks with our hand kinda under-repped. The way the action went he probs thinks we can't have a flush ourselves. But this is a bloody tough decision. I think I'm 51% calling, 49% folding lol...

Clock used to be weak but think it's stronger more recently, a lá Glen Chorney...

think were beat close to 90% of the time here. AcJc AcQc im looking to see the most.

I think is a pretty standard Ac Qc hand. You should know that even the £1k buy INS aren't that great standard until the 2nd day normally, and most decent players you would know.

Quick calls are signs of draws especially against weaker players.

Unless he is using his image then I reckon your beat 80% of the time If not more. Plus you should have a big edge in the field and be able to get chips back no probs.

Agree with 2.5k-3k on the flop. The pot was 4-bet pre so leading for more could help get the chips in on the flop if the action continues. Villain prob doesn't spazz his chips this early in 1k event unless he has a hand, although he may think A-k is a hand.

Bet 1.5k, check-call, check feels kinda soft for top-set that's all. Not saying it's the wrong play obv...

Sigh @ me potentially being a POW...

ya fwiw you def took like 6-8 minutes on the river cos our table had played like 4 hands and i still came over and watched some of it

its weird because his body language was really weak up until he called clock, like as soon as he did that i thought it was a fold....might of called before it got to that point tho dunno.

oh and ROT obv but if he's bluffing there after the clock argument he would show you the bluff about 100% of the time.

long after u busted i asked him what he had and he even explained his logic to me....then at the end of play he came over and started talking about it again but said he thought he'd played it really bad

Why gay-bet the flop? Am I missing something?

seems ok to me... 1/3 - 45% of the pot seems about right on the flop...

Board seems about as dry as you can get imo... :dontask:

Pay off Wizard ;)

Very nicely described hand. Thanks for sharing it. I think his snap call on the flop should, in theory, rule out the likely starting hands that you beat, such as AK, AA,TT or JJ. Everything seems to point to AcQc. The river snap shove, again seems to point to him having the nuts.

Meh I think if we're 4-balling it pre we should be betting more on the flop.

I like these smaller bets (in relation to pot size) when there are antes in play or stacks are shallower.

Ok, thanks for some good responses. I think its a cool hand as the whole dynamic of the hand changes if i bet more on the flop ~3k.
As for him snapping the flop i ruled out TT as he must at least consider raising. He cant have JJ as he checks back the turn nearly all of the time (unless he see's it as a reverse blocking bet or summink to get a cheaper showdown, but then he doesnt shove river obviously).
The main issue is (despite mr keys comments) that we dont flop top set all that often in a live poker tourney... and we flop it in 4bet pots hardly ever... so i dont think its as easy as snap folding and not even considering it.

I am glad the general feeling is that a fold is fine / correct in this spot cos i was pretty tilted about it afterwards. I am fine with my fold, especially with how soft my table was and how soft GUKPT's are.

Does anyone think he can be value shoving a worse hand here ever?

Following your small flop bet which just gets flatted I'd prefer to fire small again on the turn. About 3k maintains the pattern nicely.

It'll stop any bluffing and make the hand easier to play oop.

Assuming he flats the turn we get an easy bet/fold river for another 5k where we get paid off if he has got one of the other sets.

As played I really can't see that he's bluffing. Fold has to be the way and if he's bluffed us then well played sir.

You've made this tough because you know how weak your line looks. If you maintain a strong line you don't level yourself in to thinking the other guy's good enough to notice you look weak and bluff shove in to you.

qft

I think that's the main point. If your gonna regret folding you should lead the turn and make villain do something special. A weak line gets a wider range betting into you and you either want that or you don't. Ultimately it depends on villain. I would be more inclined to commit to this hand later in the comp as villain bluffs less at the start.

bet/fold to leave urself with 4k chips??

bet folding vs this type of opponent would be a big mistake imo

was ur opponent chirping?

Errrmm i make a call

If he was aggro, wouldn't he usually raise this flop with  Ac Qc or  Ac Jc?

I think I probably sigh and call.

This

if he has the nuts, does he never think value betting rather than shoving? as if we have AA here which our line kinda looks like, we are never calling the river shove? So that kinda makes me want to call, like he's floated a two club, King Ten high flop that he can rep the nuts later on that we NEVER CAN HAVE. Also thoughts on flatting the 3bet pre at 25/50 or would that be horrible?

Hopefully bet to win but yes if we have to fold then we have some rebuilding to do from 80 bigs.

I've heard that this was one of the other 10% !!

Far better line to take here shoving than to value bet.  He looks weak by doin this and the OP is more likely to call.

If he was to value bet and the OP comes over the top and he 3 bet shoved he is lesslikely to call than to shove as he did.

After the turn there's 13k in the pot and hero has 10k left so that river action would be a surprising development.

You are indeed correct.  I for one should not have skim read.

Anyway on another front the said same person that played this hand against the OP is on the fT.

Surprised that earlier in this thread someone mentions they are a friend of the OP and Sam Grafton (Villain accord to OP) told them their line of thought but find it strange they felt they would not post it?????

On another front I have played aginst Sam more than enough times that even if I did not feel he had it with his river shove I would still  not call as he has game and game enough that he varies it enough you do not know where you are, hence final table.  The OP to this done right IMHOin whichever way you look at it by folding, he still has morethan enough BB's to carry on.

GL Sam and I am sure he will divulge all when he is done.   Here is his post on the GS  Forum and other answers from those that have played against him. http://gutshot.com/bforum/showthread.php?t=35882

qc9x or acax imo.

good hand anyways,...
but gogogogo bramdogg in final later

Whatever the villian had, i agree, it was a very good hand to look at. One of the reasons that i opted for the fold option was that, a while ago, i asked a good player if there were any situations where he would consider making a snap shove. He told me, only when he had the nuts and he wanted to induce his opponent to make a hasty call.
 Fair play to both players. If villian didn't get there on the river, or already have the nut flush, it was a top class move IMO. Either way, he succeeded in leaving most of us unsure, which is no bad thing. GG.

This pls

Kid deserves a big result

Interesting to see the views on the other forum. If villain doesn't have it I find his play rather interesting. He 3bets an UTG raise, snaps a 4bet, floats the flop, tries to bluff the turn, and jams the river. All this without a hand at 25/50 against an unknown. Not sure that is a "top class" move as it goes, but it's deffo ballsy so early in a 1k event.

I'm so behind on poker if this is a fold.

We cbet because you have to after 4bet pre, get called, check the turn to induce bluff, he bluffs, we call or shove.

fyp

Entirely true.

Can someone tell me why we are checking the turn?

as camel says, is he really not raising with AQcc in a 4b pot on this flop? Hes at least raising some of the time. Would be nice to know your image.  I dont believe it and i doubt he has AJcc in his range for peeling 4bets with these stacks. Oh and im in the calling camp, he can be valuejamming worse, probs has a tonne of bluffs and nowhere near enough clubs.

Also, this whole not showing weakness with your lines thing, i thought we stopped levelling on blonde? I mean seriously, you almost had me.

ok what he have?

78o

he showed or told you?

told me

If you show weakness with your line in a big 4bet pot your oppo will likely respond to it. If you don't know what his reaction means or how to respond yourself what benefit is there in showing weakness with your line? That's the main point in this hand for me. If you're going to fold after employing a weak line maybe you shouldn't be employing a weak line. I don't think that's a level. It's not a question of what is or isn't optimum upon reflection cos both players make mistakes at the time, so maybe the line which allows for the fewest mistakes is correct if you don't have a firm plan. The reality is that hero doesn't want to go out and when the club and the heat comes that's exposed, but the weak 1.5k lead is the catalyst to that eventuality.

Nothing wrong with showing weakness as long as it's part of the plan. Play a weak line then snap off your oppos bluff is perfectly acceptable.

Playing a weak line then levelling yourself in to thinking you may be behind is very different as is playing a weak line and levelling yourself in to thinking your oppo must be bluffing so calling a bit too light.

ofcourse, but what i was alluding to was that if you bet this turn, it is to SNAP a jam from said villain, which is not what others were suggesting.

I agree bet folding this turn is terribad.

he sure is peeling a 4bet with 78o

this.

lol @ believing his shit

the dude sat next to him said he saw the 8c flash when he looked @ his cards.  But Sam didnt know this guy had told us that b4 revealing he had 78o, makes it more likely imo.  Unless it was some sort of coo between both these guys lol.

Reasons why villain wouldn't snap flip his hand when the audacious bluff got through? Saying afterwards you had nothing but big balls is better than saying you had A-8/10-8/J-8 green and you played tez. Can't remember the last time I told the truth when I didn't show. Also villain needs to work on looking at his hand without flashing cards.

he raving on gutshot about having 78o. He told dave he has 78o. BUT he told 2 other people 2 other hands.. so mehhh

If he had 78o, then its TERRIBLE. It means he peeled a 4bet with 78o for 37bb !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FWIW, i dont think he has to raise the big combo draws like AJcc and AQcc on the flop. The flop is / should be, decent for a genuine 4betting range and on THAT flop its unlikely him raising will make me fold my hand.

think this thread may of run its course. see u in coventry

Yeh why would anyone spew off this early?  ::)

hes blown.

Couldn't take anymore