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Title: Muck or not ? Post by: acc2020 on June 11, 2010, 06:11:47 AM At showdown in a cash game , there are 2 players left .
The player 1 announces " 2 pair " and the player 2 slowly begins to push his cards towards the action line . At the same time player 1 flips over pocket 2's for 88's and 22's with an ace. When player 2 sees the pocket 2's his cards were halfway over the line and now pulls them back and flips over pocket 5's for 88's and 55's with an ace. Player 1 argues that player 2 has mucked even though player 2 had the superior hand.Half the table were with player 1 and half with player 2 , the casino manager ruled in favour of player 2 in the absence of the cardroom manager. Anyone know that constitutes a muck as we were a bit confused as the cardroom manager was on holiday. Player 2 still had his fingers on the cards and they were only halfway across the line , they did not touch any other cards. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: redsimon on June 11, 2010, 06:14:50 AM At showdown in a cash game , there are 2 players left . The player 1 announces " 2 pair " and the player 2 slowly begins to push his cards towards the action line . At the same time player 1 flips over pocket 2's for 88's and 22's with an ace. When player 2 sees the pocket 2's his cards were halfway over the line and now pulls them back and flips over pocket 5's for 88's and 55's with an ace. Player 1 argues that player 2 has mucked even though player 2 had the superior hand.Half the table were with player 1 and half with player 2 , the casino manager ruled in favour of player 2 in the absence of the cardroom manager. Anyone know that constitutes a muck as we were a bit confused as the cardroom manager was on holiday. Player 2 still had his fingers on the cards and they were only halfway across the line , they did not touch any other cards. the way you describe it player 2 hasn't mucked. Player 1 seems to be a d-bag too. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: thetank on June 11, 2010, 06:24:14 AM To be mucked (verb) they have to touch the muck (noun)
Rule in favour of A8855 Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: boldie on June 11, 2010, 07:53:34 AM never a muck
Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Girgy85 on June 11, 2010, 08:28:39 AM You say it's an 'action line'? Are you sure it's not a betting line?
I rule with the 55's as the hand has not been mucked and is still live! Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: LeedsRhodesy on June 11, 2010, 08:55:01 AM Lol I was once were holding my card over the line when it was my turn to act I had a look at them then the dealer told me my hand was dead cos my cards are over the muck line I lol.
Cards are live pocket 55 win, cards are only dead once they have been in the muck Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: titaniumbean on June 11, 2010, 02:45:29 PM I wish I could change the rules to poker and make anyone who fking declares "two pair" on a board with a pair on should be shot in the face. Then shot in the crotch then ground into the floor.
Having to wait 2 minutes to find they have a terrible pair for 'two pair' literally makes me want to kill the morons. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: outragous76 on June 11, 2010, 02:51:30 PM I wish I could change the rules to poker and make anyone who fking declares "two pair" on a board with a pair on should be shot in the face. Then shot in the crotch then ground into the floor. Having to wait 2 minutes to find they have a terrible pair for 'two pair' literally makes me want to kill the morons. what hand would you like them to declare? For me, when called, just show your hand or muck it - would save alot of frustration all round Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Paullie_D on June 11, 2010, 03:02:34 PM Sounds like the acting floor went with Rule 1.
Quote 1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling. Quote DEAD HANDS 1. Your hand is declared dead if: (a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise. (b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). (c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards and downcards together. (d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [See Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.] (e) You act on a hand with a joker as a hole card in a game not using a joker. (A player who acts on a hand without looking at a card assumes the liability of finding an improper card, as given in Irregularities, rule #8.) (f) You have the clock on you when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit. 2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player. 3. Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are face up or facedown. Seems to me none of the above apply...Player 2 gets the pot...Player 1 gets a boot in the boIIocks for being an angle shooting d-bag Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: titaniumbean on June 11, 2010, 03:10:23 PM I wish I could change the rules to poker and make anyone who fking declares "two pair" on a board with a pair on should be shot in the face. Then shot in the crotch then ground into the floor. Having to wait 2 minutes to find they have a terrible pair for 'two pair' literally makes me want to kill the morons. what hand would you like them to declare? For me, when called, just show your hand or muck it - would save alot of frustration all round errrrrr the hand they fking hold what's wrong with you??? board is AA K63 ....... I have two pair........ what two pair........ well it beats a pair of twos.......... what do you have...... no i wanna seee yours....... i have a pair of fours ........ oh well i win i have two pairs aces and kings........ omg die. it's as easy as open mucking....... just say two pair, aces and eights. two pair aces and fours do you see how easy it is? edit the whole asking a questions about your opponents hand strength as opposed to declaring or showing down is so tilting. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: outragous76 on June 11, 2010, 03:16:18 PM I wish I could change the rules to poker and make anyone who fking declares "two pair" on a board with a pair on should be shot in the face. Then shot in the crotch then ground into the floor. Having to wait 2 minutes to find they have a terrible pair for 'two pair' literally makes me want to kill the morons. what hand would you like them to declare? For me, when called, just show your hand or muck it - would save alot of frustration all round errrrrr the hand they fking hold what's wrong with you??? board is AA K63 ....... I have two pair........ what two pair........ well it beats a pair of twos.......... what do you have...... no i wanna seee yours....... i have a pair of fours ........ oh well i win i have two pairs aces and kings........ omg die. it's as easy as open mucking....... just say two pair, aces and eights. two pair aces and fours do you see how easy it is? edit the whole asking a questions about your opponents hand strength as opposed to declaring or showing down is so tilting. i believe my solution of exposing your hand if you have any type of winnable holding is fairly safe and prevents having to declare anything Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: titaniumbean on June 11, 2010, 03:18:51 PM I am fine with the cards being turned over quickly that's kind of too much to hope for really. as live players realise just how much important information they give away if they let everyone in on the secret of what they hold ;tk;
get so fed up sitting there live when there is no excuse for the game not to be moving on. sitting looking at each other waiting for something to happen is so tilting, just know the rule and show if its on you or verbally declare and keep things moving. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: acc2020 on June 11, 2010, 04:36:23 PM What if the cards were pushed over the line face down but not touching any other cards, could they be retrieved to claim a pot if the other person tables a weaker holding?
Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: outragous76 on June 11, 2010, 04:37:53 PM What if the cards were pushed over the line face down but not touching any other cards, could they be retrieved to claim a pot if the other person tables a weaker holding? yes Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Claw75 on June 11, 2010, 04:49:16 PM how about if the cards have touched the muck but are easily identifyable? Happened to me in a cash game a while back, and yes, I did declare 'two pair' on a paired board before he mucked ;hide;
Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: GreekStein on June 11, 2010, 05:08:30 PM and yes, I did declare 'two pair' on a paired board before he mucked ;hide; Not really anything wrong with this imo. Your hand ranking is 2 pair and therefore you declared it. Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Claw75 on June 11, 2010, 05:10:19 PM and yes, I did declare 'two pair' on a paired board before he mucked ;hide; Not really anything wrong with this imo. Your hand ranking is 2 pair and therefore you declared it. well I don't think so either obv, but slightly scared that beanie might give me evils next time I see him Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: acc2020 on June 11, 2010, 05:22:13 PM If cards pushed faced down over the line are not strictly dead , then wouldn't that force late position players to table their cards allowing you to retrieve your own cards if you beat them ?
A potentially dirty move , why can't the action line represent a muck or not ? What is the line really for? Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: titaniumbean on June 11, 2010, 05:24:19 PM and yes, I did declare 'two pair' on a paired board before he mucked ;hide; Not really anything wrong with this imo. Your hand ranking is 2 pair and therefore you declared it. nothing wrong with having two pair, it's well hard to hit two pairs. What I hate is the wasted time while people are being morons and refusing to specify or help us move onto the next hand. I just love spending 5 minutes on every showdown. it's great fun...... and dont worry I am just an internet hard man, in person Im a fwuffy ickle bunny ;snoopy'sguns; Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Girgy85 on June 11, 2010, 06:02:54 PM If cards pushed faced down over the line are not strictly dead , then wouldn't that force late position players to table their cards allowing you to retrieve your own cards if you beat them ? A potentially dirty move , why can't the action line represent a muck or not ? What is the line really for? depends on the casino but usually the line is a betting line! What about tables without a line like in wsop etc? Dealer should grab the players cards as soon as they relinquish their hand and muck it! IMO! Title: Re: Muck or not ? Post by: Cf on June 11, 2010, 07:16:14 PM I'd allow player 2s hand to stand as he didn't let go and therefore hasn't folded it yet.
I couldn't care less about touching the muck. If a player throws his hand forward face down in this spot then I accept his right to fold in turn. His hand is dead. |