blonde poker forum

Live MTT £100 buy in.  10,000 starting stack. Only 22 runners (World Cup impact)

2nd hand of 10 handed final table. Average stack is 22,000 and blinds are 300/600/50

I'm in SB with c 30,000

BB has c 38,000

Seat 10 has c 20,000

Limped to me in Small Blind, I make up with K7 and BB checks.

Flop is KK9, 2 spades.

I check, BB (a strong player, capable of making moves) leads for 1,000 and seat 10 a very accomplished deep thinking player, raises to 4,000. What should I do and why?

(I'll post turn and river cards and action later and will be interested in views on all 3 players).

Fold pre. Flat now.

^^This but that's not hugely helpful without explanation...

You can't raise because you turn your hand into a bluff.

You can't fold because our hand is too strong. Live players can be raising hands as bluffs here, raising to find out whether their pair or 9 is good (lol - it happens!)

I'm not expecting to get bluffed on the turn because our hand now looks so strong.

I expected the fold pre comment.  I think making up the small blind may be a leak in my game, but is it really all that bad calling 300 into a pot of 2,000 (blinds, antes and one limp)?

Reverse implied odds.

This hand is a good example actually, we basically flop one of the best hands we could and still could be wayyyy behind as there are a lot kx hands that could be in either players hand.

Does the accomplished deep thinking player limp a lot?  

Have limpers normally been isolated at the table/in the tourney?

If first player can make moves his range is wide. The deep thinking player should know this, would he raise to take it away? I can' t see a reason to fold trips. You either call or raise. A better king is possible so i call here.

This was my thinking entirely. BB could be taking a stab, representing strength on a paired board. The 2nd player is good enough to know this and raise to take it away. Given this, I felt a call would  be best.

BB now has a long dwell, trying to get a read from me and seeming genuinely puzzled as to what we may have. I now think he may have the other king.

The Turn is a Jack.  What do I do now and why ?

I would check again. Then i would re-assess depending on the action. Either the BB or seat 10 may have been betting the flush and / or straight draw. I'm thinking that seat 10, putting a fair amount of his stack in may have had a very strong draw, such as QJ suited, or maybe just the NFD. Either way, i would check and await the response from the two other combatants.

Thanks for the reply and point taken.  Should we generally be more worried about the reverse implied odds (especially if dominated) than we are by the (to me) enticing 7-1 pot odds?

Should we fold all weak SB hands or just those in danger of being dominated - ie is (say) 6 7 a better call than K 7 - or are they both easy folds?

alan (good to meet you too btw - sorry forgot to say that)

As a default you should be folding, however if i have  a suited connector or suited 1 gapper getting 7:1 im finding it difficult to fold. Your point about domintaed holdings is very vaild thou

i fold pre and fold the flop as played

This is why NigDawG's the best.

Why do you fold the flop Chris?

i said as played, i would be leading this flop 100% of the time

I had a longish reply written but scrapped it. In a nutshell:

I hate getting trips from the blinds with a weak kicker. I'd be leading the flop to build a pot a bit, but if there's significant action I'm not gonna get too attached to the hand because even with a flush draw out there I doubt people are getting too out of line when a blind hand bets onto a paired board. Unless you have history with the villains just assume they're playing abc poker, and that often means a raise = K>7 in this spot.

I'm folding as played. And a nice example of why Arag/Krag/Qrag/Jrag etc etc should be folded from the SB. Similar to Girgys post the other day.

I know dude.

Curious to know why you'd fold it now though as we have triplet kings.

What position is seat 10? Have I missed this?

I was Small Blind in seat 3. Seat 10 is fairly late position, one before the cut off.

To complete the story, I did exactly this, checking with a view to reassessing, but most likely raising if seat 10 bets.  BB did a long dwell again, looking me up and down and eventually checked behind, as did seat 10. I think BB may have a king but most likely my K is good.

The river was a 3, and I bet out 7,000.  BB  dwells again and makes the call.  Seat 10 now goes all in. I called and BB folded, complaining that he'd "completely mangled the hand"

Showdown.

Me     K7
10     Pocket 3's that got there on the river!

BB     Showed K6

I clearly made mistakes in this hand but what do you think about the play of BB and seat 10?

Cheers for the show. With the benefit of hindsight, it looks like most other options, such as betting the flop, or check-raising on the flop would have resulted in you chopping a small profit with the BB.
 I'm not sure about the actions of the button, but it looks as though you and the BB were busy, correctly, being concerned about each others hands, the button managed to get lucky on the river. Maybe it just shows that being the aggressor pays. I'm still not sure what about what the correct line is for this scenario. Would be interested if anyone else has any idea. Was it just a cooler in the end?

Button played it fine apart from not opening pre. Postflop I think he played spot on. Bluffed the flop. Got called so rightly didn't bother on the turn. And value towned you on the river.

BB was in the same boat as you really flopping pretty much the same hand. I guess he has to call the flop, tho he's prob not loving it. No point raising at this point. After the turn goes checkx3 he has to call your 7k. But following the shove and the call his K6 is never good. Good fold.

I don't like your 7k on the river. Just check the hand down. If you're hoping they had flush draws then these missed and you won't get paid. But they might decide to bluff if checked to. Once you're shoved on though I think you have to fold this unless you think button is capable of a bluff in this spot.

Thank cf - I agree. I made a bad bet and call on the river. BB said he hated calling the river bet and it was an easy fold for him after that.

Seat 10 was widely criticised for playing badly, but when I heard his reasoning, I thought "great play." It was the great Willie Tann, by the way, and his reasoning was that by raising on the flop, he knew he'd get a free card on the turn!