blonde poker forum

First one of these I have done so bare with me, I got a lot of stick for this hand.

Final table of tournament 5 handed, Blinds 8,000-16,000, Average chips 120,000 (so bingo), I am sitting with almost half the chips in play bout 300k, sitting UTG+1

I see  Js Qs five handed, to me good starting hand, I raise to 50k, big blind, dwells up for ages, then min raises!  Player had overvalued a lot of bad hands and I am getting 3 to 1 on a flat, he is sitting 70k behind, so I can lose an all in and still be left with Average chips.

2 Questions,

Number 1 - pre flop in Bingo time should I just be shipping if I plan to play a hand out, or can I still do standard raises.
Number 2 - do I flat this bet, ship, or fold!

As an added point I have a good chip lead, if I give this up, it will be quite tight and the winner gets an added incentive of a £500 tournament seat. £1,100 to winner plus seat, and £750 to second....so very much a win at all costs type of thinking!   Whats the thoughts????

you have 300 k
he min raised to 90k with 100 back = 190k
sp between the rest of them they have 100k?

raise to 35k and fold to his shove and snap the shortys who will all have about 30k?

you now put yourself in a position where you're getting priced in to call bets from the only other stack that bothers you.

He had 70k back, so was 170k....rough stack sizes Seat 1 310,000 (me) Seat 2 70,000 Seat 3 70,000 Seat 4 170,000 Seat 5 50,000

Raise less. Fold to the 3 bet from the bigger stack. Call a shove from any of the others.

5 handed with stacks as they are I'm never raising to fold.

I also don't like raising to have to call a shove with this hand so the easiest way is to just ship it pre.

Your position is important here as well. UTG or +1 I probably just fold this. Button or SB just ship it in.

This might seem like a good starting hand but at this stage it isn't. It's nice to ship with FE or even reship but stacks aren't giving any room to play pokerz so raising is pretty bad imo.

There's 4 short stacks and any one of them will likely shove with Ax leaving you in pretty bad shape. At least if you ship first you may get someone to lay down a better hand.

Yeah I think you can go all in here pretty unexploitabley.

I'm somewhat confused did he minraise?


or make it 100k?


or both and you're playing somewhere where 100k is a min raise?

and we're in the cutoff here right? either folding pre or raising less or shoving but never making it 50k. 50k's pretty much comitted us with a tez hand and all but the short stack to act after us

I made it 50k, he made it 98k randomly, so just above min raise, 48k is the bet to call....small blind 6k so 154k in the pot 48k to call.

I agree I got myself in a spot here by raising levels, as as soon as he done it my initial reaction was "Balls" I asked for a count of behind to see if I could flat and get off it with a big miss, or if I had to put the pressure on or fold.

you've mumbo jumbo'd up all the blinds/stack sizes so much i can't understand it but assuming you're 5 handed with 300k and the other 4 have 300k between them @8k/16k i'd be open shoving  Qs Js pre flop.

This or open jam... dont fanny around with blinds at this level play time is over

Thanks, sorry for the confused stacks! Just trying to work on my deep in play as it is killing me at the moment!

In short, I decided to peel the flop (awful I know), pretty sure I would have to call the 70k flop shove unless it was a catastrophic brick...i.e. Ace high, no straight or flush possibilities! even then with pain!  Flop comes Q high, big bling shoves, and I insta call!   He shoes AJ Off for no pair no draw! I win although obviously in very bad shape pre!

Incidently, I am assuming he played this hand very badly, if he planned to shove regardless of bricking flop, why not just go all in pre?  I fold and he takes me 50k bet and I lick my wounds!  Wasnt a great played hand by either player!

lol he got someone to commit with a far inferior hand, doubt he could of played it better

True! lol

yea like people said given stacks, raise less to like 34k and fold to this stack's shove and call shorties.

he actually did play AJ bad. for one, not sure if its correct icm wise for him to even play pre after your raise. but say he was playing for 1st, he should really be shipping pre. this minraise with AJj is weak, he doesnt need to get action from you and play postflop, he should be using any fe he's got left and shipping pre.

unless he got a massive tell on you where he knows he's got you dominated which I doubt cus he shipped Q high flop anyway. the point about he got you to commit with a worse hand is not necessarily valid as QJ is probably at the bottom of your range and there's no way for him to know you have specifically that hand this time around. yea he happened to have you dominated this time around but that would happen to be the case far less often. he has to put you specifically on that hand and assume you would call a minraise but fold to a shove and for him to be able to get away from it on Q high flop when he missed for that to be valid.

basically, if you have AJ in his spot, dont minraise. just fold pre or ship it in pre depending on variables like game dynamics/payout structure etc.

This is just wrong in so many ways.

Firstly why is his min raise weak? "He doesn't need to get action from you and play post flop"... WTF!?!? You think he's planning on doing anything other than get his chips in on the flop? There's no play happening post flop here mate.

"he should be using any fe he's got left and shipping pre".... Agains WTF!?!?! You think he wants you to fold? FE is all about getting your oppo to fold a better hand. If he shipd and we fold our JQ he's fucked up big time. You think if he ships we're folding any hand that beats him?

"unless he got a massive tell on you"..... It just gets better. Why would he need a tell? It's 5 handed, he's short stacked and he has AJ. You could be jumping up and down and hi fiving all your mates and he's still getting it in.

"basically, if you have AJ in his spot, dont minraise. just fold pre or ship it in pre".... Oh my GOD!!!! I think my head's going to explode!!!!!!

There's a bit more to rip apart but I'm just off to walk the dog so I won't bother.

By the way. Was this post just one big level? Well done if it was. Is this Rooks? Ha ha!! Well done mate, I love you :D

lulz um ok

tho you should prolly read my post again.

either way your post reminds me of...

(http://erroraccessdenied.com/files/images/disguise%20skill%20try%20harder.jpg)

lulz guessing for your sake your post was a level

also either way prolly for you it's...

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/3015062728_6b27f9a6ae.jpg)

just lulz

one of the reasons its not preferred to post in public strategy forums sometimes. gotta deal with random spazzouts like that. there should be some ban/restrictions after someone makes a post like that. lol fortunately, i've found that post is mostly an exception to the majority of posts on the strat forum here so thats good so far.

I might post on a couple forums to get other people's perspective for your sake or you should try doing that. lol im not even gonna bother expanding on my strat. post above. was pretty simplistic i thought. if a winning player wants to clarify it to him go for it but i wouldnt blame them if they didnt. if op or a respected winning player has a qn./need a clarification feel free to ask and will be glad to clarify.

lol tho oh well.

Oh my God!!!

It's so close!!!!!

You've almost got me!!!!

Keep digging Rooks. You'll break me soon I promise.

chill I am not rooks neither do I know anyone with that name. PSU stands for Penn State Uni. obv. in case you didn't know.

but to the topic, seriously you should reread that strat. post and maybe the points will get across this time around.  if not oh well.

or really try posting that on any other good strat. forums and read similar points told to you from diff. ppl. before spazzing out and typing wtfs like 5 times in a sentence and offering incorrect advice.

all I'll point to you is like I said in my earlier post, again, look at stack sizes and read again what I explained. if you cant get it from there, guess I cant help you as it doesn't seem you're interested in improving as much as typing wtfs a bunch of time.

guess as you dont understand my strat. posts, I won't post in your threads.

As for that strat. post of mine, like I said earlier, if OP/other respected posters have a qn. feel free to ask.

Either way, I dont have time for this offtopic exchange in a strat. forum. I'm here strictly to read what other good players post and contribute positively in the strat. forums myself.

With what appears to be 11bbs effective and  Qs Js in the cutoff, doing anything but shipping it all in pre is a big mistake imo.

wtf, time of the month??

yer ship pre in the cutoff for me, are there ante's in the game? even if not i still think its a ship as live players calling ranges are usually a lot tighter, if we do get called we have a pretty hand, oh and with the extra 500 up top were going ftw!!!

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

Sorry I thought you were studying power supply units. My bad.

I've reread the strat and I still believe it to be extremely flawed and exploitable. 5 handed with 5% of the total tournament chips in the middle just in blinds I can't see how any move other than shove or fold is acceptable. If we raise to 34k there is now 10% of the entire tournament's chips just sat there in the middle and we are going to let someone else take them by shoving? Doesn't seem like a bright idea to me.

There were 2 WTFs in 7 paragraphs. You slightly over exaggerated that one.

I would genuinely be interested to see what other strat forums have to say about this hand. I'm not a member on any others so maybe you could post it on one and then provide a link once a few posters have had their say.

I'm very keen on improving my game which is why I frequent this board. I also understand your strat so please post on threads. It just happens that despite understanding it I strongly disagree with your strat on this particular hand. This doesn't mean I wont agree with something else you have to add.

 Js Qs - shove pre /thread pretty much

in this case above I think it boils down in the main aspect to ICM im not a tourney/sng player for the most part, so ICM isn't something I feel comfortable writing anything positive about here, but also I spose it depends hevily on the villain as well. In the stated example that bet size looks very much like he is rasing to fold to you and snap the shorty's off, in which case shoving might not be terrible, if you knew the villain you'd have a good idea of his opening ranges and roughly wat % he is folding and that might make a shove possible, although id imagine ICM would make this a FOLD FOLD FOLD.

I cant see any point to raise folding, I think that is by far the worst option, and  leaves you open to being exploited. I don't think there will be many spots like this where we could consider a raise fold.

Both situations depend greatly on our opponent. If I think he's not the sort to commit this much to a pot and fold I'd just shove.

If I think oppo may fold I might just min raise to get to get him to spew a few more chips in my direction. If I think he may fold though I would also ship here with any 2 cards and exploit his weakness while I still have enough chips to do so.

5 handed I'm ahead of any realistic range you can come up with so I'm happy getting it in here if that's in any way possible. I just don't want to shove if I think he's going to pass all those hands out there that I crush.

In a satellite I just shove it. No point messing about but I still think I'm ahead of any range and I also have FE against 60/40 type hands such as Q10 etc. In the tournament I want to get the money in against worse hands but in a sat I don't mind getting worse hands to fold. Obviously this is again very opponent specific but with these chips we wouldn't be locked and need to do something at some stage to ensure our prize. If we fold here we might as well just quit.

I really want to shove and I probs would in real time lol - but IM SURE an ICM genius is gonna come along and say its a fold, so I was trying to be right for once! queue someone with ICM powers to settle this....

PSU's 'strat.' makes a bit more sense now i realise he is assuming there are 2 prizes, i did not make such an assumption.

I have assumed we are already ITM which looks the case and 2nd prize has been show to illustrate how top heavy the tournament is.

As such he is wrong purely because he is evaluating the wrong hand.

I dont really like use of the term "winning player" here - makes it sound like a) EvilPie isnt, b) You are and c) only the "group" of winning players are allowed to participate.
I dont know u or EvilPie IRL, you both might be playing nosebleeds, its just bad for the board stuff like this imo

Guessing my truly awful stack estimates etc has confused opinions (apologies), I fold to a pre ship, JQ is pretty much bang at the bottom of my range, just canvasing opinion, I dont play money shove fests and always struggle when it gets silly to strike a balance between shoving too early or blinding out! so insight is appreciated!  Player had played with me all night and not seen one bluff shown, so doubt he had read, although, I was very active expoiting my stack on the final table as a lot of players seemed keen to ladder! standard of play highlighted by an early position limp with  Tc Td for 35% of stack...hmmmmmmm

Also as a small overtone we were 30 minutes from an enforced chip count to decide positions! which is why cute playing AJ seemed even odder to me!  especially remembering that first was 100% greater prize than second!

ha atleast I dont see a bunch of wtfs and "my heads gonna asplode" type of posts so thats a good sign.

basically what I wrote previously was either not read entirely and/or not interpreted correctly and taken out of context.

I clearly said 'I do believe villain played it incorrectly. If you have AJ in villain's spot, do not minraise. Depending on payouts/game dynamics, shove or fold.'

1. So I was arguing the villain with AJ did play it bad and anyone arguing minraising with AJ "to get action from worse hands/get opponent to spew or he got you to get your money in with a worse hand" is making a technically flawed argument, esp. given stack sizes. So I disagree with anyone that is arguing minraising with AJ is a good line and winning mtters/sngers will tell you its a terrible play and virtually no set of circumstances justify minraise with AJ as a +EV play.

2. Also, anyone arguing that raise/folding QJ pre is not an option is either taking my argument out of context or is not familiar with some specific mtt/sng dynamics. I clearly said depending on payouts/game dynamics. Say if the opponent with AJ is a nit playing to cash, then you can raise QJ and fold if he shoves as you know when he does take a stand he will have you crushed. Say if payout structure is 10k each for 1st and 2nd only, then you can raise QJ and fold as you're opponent will have to fold AJ there and if he shoves, you can easily fold. So as much as I had hoped my implying all this would be understood by using a phrase like "depending payouts/game dynamics" I guess sometimes you just have to expand on it.

3. Also, anyone arguing folding AJ pre is not an option and is equivalent to 'might as well quit if AJ is folded pre' is also offering incorrect advice and I obv. disagree with that as well. My point is, as I clearly said, depending on payout structures/game dynamics, shove or fold AJ pre. So I'm arguing there will be times given an entirely different payout structure and against a particular set of opponents, you will have to fold AJ pre and doing anything else will be hugely -EV. Any satty/icm expert will tell you there are times when folding AA pre is correct and/ AJ is not even close. Again, I clearly said, 'depending on payouts, raise or fold AJ pre' so if you ignore half of the sentence and argue "you can never fold AJ pre" then basically your argument is invalid as you are taking my point out of context. So anyone saying "he is wrong cus he is evaluating a diff. hand" well I'm not wrong cus I'm evaluating a diff. hand, I'm actually changing up the parameters like payouts and player images to illustrate another point and taking OP's spot a step further.

I guess as I expand on this some of it will be clear thats why I said reread the post to see what I was referring to (ie diff. set of parameters regarding payouts/table dynamics).

4. Thing is I don't expect for everyone to interpret everything I say in a sentence entirely the way I intended it without me having to expand/clarify that's why people write books, some of these concepts you can write pages on and no one has time for that here. I guess I was assuming by using generalized phrases like 'depending on payouts/game dynamics' people will get what I'm implying and clearly not everyone did.

5. I didn't say winning player to insinuate the other poster isnt. Just from my experience, a lot of respected regs don't go "wtf, my heads exploding, i can rip more into this post" etc but instead ask constructive qns. if they arent clear on something. The kind of debate I prefer to engage in is the civil, constructive one. That's why I offered to not post in his other threads if our posting styles don't gel well as I would not like to contribute to disruption on this forum.

So basically some of this confusion resulted from misinterpretation and some of it I believe through incorrect fundamental understanding of concepts/correct plays. Hopefully some of that is clarified. I'm done with this hand and moving on to next one as its a simple spot to me and there is nothing more I can expand on here.

I would add it was an interesting discussion. As I get used to posting in strategy forums, it did help me realize some stuff like how not to phrase strategy opinions.  I am definitely not trying to create any confusion. Cheers.

WTF!?!?!?!?

;)

I dont have issue with the content of your posts, its just the tone of them seems to rub me the wrong way a bit, I am new to posting here as well really so defo dont wanna fall out with anyone or discourage new people, who put thought and effort into their posts from posting. So again no hard feelings.

i mean, it sounds like op was raise folding to a shove preflop, so i think you could argue the guy with AJ actually played his hand ok

Why is it technically flawed, show me why you can't just say it.

I am a winning MTTer and i say in this situation its a great line as we have an OP who is going to raise fold but we can get him to change his mind by just raising small and then by his own admission he is just going to call it off anyway post!

Stop looking at everything by hard and fast rules, be adaptable the game often throws up very unique spots so you can't play to a formula if you want to play optimal.

def. dont play by a formula. I like to think I adapt well.

I guess, with my overall style of playing, I can't see myself minraising with AJ pre in this spot. I feel more comfortable shoving or folding AJ pre given stacks. Even if OP 'appears' like they would raise fold, I still just like to get it in pre. I dont think 11bbs stack is good for minraise play oop to try to pick up a few more chips.

I see the argument about 'if OP is guaranteed to raise fold but will call a minraise so we can minraise to pick up chips.' But I would rather balance my shoving range/image. For one, its easy to say 'clearly he looks like he will raise/fold but he will call a minraise 100% and I know for sure I have him dominated.' There's no way for you to know that . So, do you want to a) maybe pickup 50k chips but no guarantees by making an awkward/fancy play or b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes. And the latter works for me and I'll just be honest, minraise generally as a play technically is not appealing to me, atleast for my overall style of play.

I'm all for creative plays and if someone can make it work for them, more power to them.  I just dont think minraising AJ there is hugely +EV but could be breakeven or -ev play longterm, atleast for me. But good discussion guys, cheers.

personally in a situation where im 5 handed in tourney (doesnt happen often lol) I would be looking to play every hand for max. value in a vacuum than worrying about balance too mugh. espcially with 11bbs


Prove it ;)

If I was the AJ guy here I would definitely just get it in. I wouldn't expect oppo to pass so definitely no need for fancy plays.

If oppo had raised to 34k though instead of 50k I might think differently. A raise which clearly says "I'm not folding" but still gives oppo a chance to get them in first might just get me paid off. I don't know why but even with no FE whatsoever people still have this thing about "well at least I got them in first".

As for getting called and having to play a pot oop I really don't mind about that at all. Position is irrelevant once I've got oppo to commit half his stack. They're going in no matter what so it really doesn't matter.

Do not worry about balancing your 11bb 3b range, its never going to be light in this spot so no need to balance. As a general rule we don't need to balance our range too much as the people we are playing in a casino tournament probably won't notice anyway.

I don't need to have him dominated, he never folds worse to a shove pre so what's the problem with widening his range?

'b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes'

This sentence makes no sense.

Also what is your overall style of play and why does it prevent you from playing hands in an optimal manner?

Ha i actually left out the line "Be an independent thinker"

heh think topic's been made overcomplicated. pretty simple spot for me.

as we know there's diff. ways to play a hand. I stand by how I said I would play it out as it suits my overall gameplan and I'm sure others arguing for alternative lines have their reasons.

this one's getting old. moving on to next hand. cheers.

What is your overall gameplan?

Mine is just to win, am curious to see what other alternatives people come up with.