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Title: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: Amatay on October 19, 2010, 09:37:03 PM Think this is a 50 donko on pp. Havent seen villian do anything to spazzy. First question is should i be completing? 220 in pot and 40 to call with k7ss. I'll post the whole hand, whats my line like? I sometimes i have a tendency to put myself in awkward ish spots like this completing in the sb with half a hand when im getting a fair price. If im check calling flop and turn i guess i call river? although is he really bluffing once i call two streets on this board? plus he bet sizing looks like he has me? Not happy with this hand tbh, what would you do? cheers
***** Hand History For Game 9731245170 ***** 20/40 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (MTT Tournament #55351191) - Wed Oct 13 18:17:33 EDT 2010 Table Table 1757463 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button Total number of players : 10/10 Seat 1: stuka001 (2640) Seat 2: RRRIGHT_ON (3145) Seat 3: dana13333 (3035) Seat 4: Nickolaj_kh (3507) Seat 5: shahin225 (3110) Seat 6: Medlin56 (2023) Seat 7: caddyman50 (2820) Seat 8: stjernen190 (3185) Seat 9: ATO_BOY (2960) Seat 10: STUP1D_F1SH (2985) ATO_BOY posts small blind (20) STUP1D_F1SH posts big blind (40) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to STUP1D_F1SH [ 7s, Ks ] stuka001 folds RRRIGHT_ON folds dana13333 raises 80 to 80 Nickolaj_kh calls (80) shahin225 folds Medlin56 folds caddyman50 folds stjernen190 folds ATO_BOY folds STUP1D_F1SH calls (40) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Tc, Ts, Kd ] STUP1D_F1SH checks dana13333 checks Nickolaj_kh bets (130) STUP1D_F1SH calls (130) dana13333 folds ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ] STUP1D_F1SH checks Nickolaj_kh bets (260) STUP1D_F1SH calls (260) ** Dealing River ** : [ 5c ] STUP1D_F1SH checks Nickolaj_kh bets (400) STUP1D_F1SH folds ** Summary ** Main Pot: 1040 Board: [ Tc Ts Kd 2c 5c ] stuka001 balance 2640, didn't bet (folded) RRRIGHT_ON balance 3145, didn't bet (folded) dana13333 balance 2955, lost 80 (folded) Nickolaj_kh balance 4077, bet 870, collected 1440, net +570 shahin225 balance 3110, didn't bet (folded) Medlin56 balance 2023, didn't bet (folded) caddyman50 balance 2820, didn't bet (folded) stjernen190 balance 3185, didn't bet (folded) ATO_BOY balance 2940, lost 20 (folded) STUP1D_F1SH balance 2515, lost 470 (folded) Title: Re: completing sb with half a hand. Post by: gatso on October 19, 2010, 09:44:54 PM err, you're the bb
Title: Re: completing sb with half a hand. Post by: Amatay on October 19, 2010, 09:47:36 PM Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: the rage on October 19, 2010, 11:14:32 PM I quite like the way that you played the hand. I would say that you are probably only beating a total bluff. You are only ahead of 3 Kx hands which i would expect villian to check down on the river. Kc Xc makes a bit of sense for villian to me too. I will be interested to see how others handle these situations, but, your play looks fine to me.
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: MC on October 20, 2010, 12:24:37 AM Meh, fold pre.
As played I probs just check/fold the turn. Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: NigDawG on October 20, 2010, 10:22:04 AM Fold pre. People defend their blinds far too wide imo
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: pleno1 on October 20, 2010, 10:26:20 AM Def fold pre, but if you do call I would c/f this turn card.
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: geordieneil on October 20, 2010, 12:26:34 PM never in a million years would i fold pre, not for 40 chips. you need to flop hard to continue though...... other streets a different story, you were getting no information by the way you played the flop turn.......i would of fired a 2/3 or 3/4 pot donk bet on the flop, if he calls you know ur hand is probably no good (but if nitty he may well of folded a better king with the 10 10 on board), raised you snap fold.....but check calling gives you know info what so ever and in the end has cost you more in chips that a donk bet lead on the flop would of.
but the way you played the hand you are almost certain to be beat but calling the river bet (although almost certain ur beat) would of give you info on future hands, the way the hand has worked out there are a few hands u are still beating, oppo would play jq pretty much like that possibly qq or jj.....even aq or aj....although these hands unlikely, they are possible Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: david3103 on October 20, 2010, 12:40:25 PM Fold pre. People defend their blinds far too wide imo Why do we describe calling a preflop raise from the BB as 'defending the blind'? It's a very passive form of defence Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: railtard1 on October 20, 2010, 02:09:42 PM never in a million years would i fold pre, not for 40 chips. you need to flop hard to continue though...... other streets a different story, you were getting no information by the way you played the flop turn.......i would of fired a 2/3 or 3/4 pot donk bet on the flop, if he calls you know ur hand is probably no good (but if nitty he may well of folded a better king with the 10 10 on board), raised you snap fold.....but check calling gives you know info what so ever and in the end has cost you more in chips that a donk bet lead on the flop would of. but the way you played the hand you are almost certain to be beat but calling the river bet (although almost certain ur beat) would of give you info on future hands, the way the hand has worked out there are a few hands u are still beating, oppo would play jq pretty much like that possibly qq or jj.....even aq or aj....although these hands unlikely, they are possible Its not the "40 chips" that ur calling now, its the 100 chips ur gona lose on the flop (u say hit hard, but there is no way u can check fold the flop after peeling k7 pre, u have flopped a good board for your hand). Then the 200 chips your gona lose on the turn and etc etc. It really is a huge leak in mtt players to peel weak / marginal hands from the blinds. As played check fold turn unless you have some form of note which is indicating otherwise. Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: EvilPie on October 20, 2010, 02:18:16 PM never in a million years would i fold pre, not for 40 chips. you need to flop hard to continue though...... other streets a different story, you were getting no information by the way you played the flop turn.......i would of fired a 2/3 or 3/4 pot donk bet on the flop, if he calls you know ur hand is probably no good (but if nitty he may well of folded a better king with the 10 10 on board), raised you snap fold.....but check calling gives you know info what so ever and in the end has cost you more in chips that a donk bet lead on the flop would of. but the way you played the hand you are almost certain to be beat but calling the river bet (although almost certain ur beat) would of give you info on future hands, the way the hand has worked out there are a few hands u are still beating, oppo would play jq pretty much like that possibly qq or jj.....even aq or aj....although these hands unlikely, they are possible Its not the "40 chips" that ur calling now, its the 100 chips ur gona lose on the flop (u say hit hard, but there is no way u can check fold the flop after peeling k7 pre, u have flopped a good board for your hand). Then the 200 chips your gona lose on the turn and etc etc. It really is a huge leak in mtt players to peel weak / marginal hands from the blinds. As played check fold turn unless you have some form of note which is indicating otherwise. Pretty good way to describe reverse implied odds. It's a big leak Neil unless you 100% know will won't get involved when you hit a bit like Amatay has done here. Problem is that if you hit big you aren't going to get paid anyway. If you're awesome you can outplay the min raiser but that's some next level shit best left to Dubai. (Cus he's a crab innit) Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: geordieneil on October 20, 2010, 02:32:08 PM never in a million years would i fold pre, not for 40 chips. you need to flop hard to continue though...... other streets a different story, you were getting no information by the way you played the flop turn.......i would of fired a 2/3 or 3/4 pot donk bet on the flop, if he calls you know ur hand is probably no good (but if nitty he may well of folded a better king with the 10 10 on board), raised you snap fold.....but check calling gives you know info what so ever and in the end has cost you more in chips that a donk bet lead on the flop would of. but the way you played the hand you are almost certain to be beat but calling the river bet (although almost certain ur beat) would of give you info on future hands, the way the hand has worked out there are a few hands u are still beating, oppo would play jq pretty much like that possibly qq or jj.....even aq or aj....although these hands unlikely, they are possible Its not the "40 chips" that ur calling now, its the 100 chips ur gona lose on the flop (u say hit hard, but there is no way u can check fold the flop after peeling k7 pre, u have flopped a good board for your hand). Then the 200 chips your gona lose on the turn and etc etc. It really is a huge leak in mtt players to peel weak / marginal hands from the blinds. As played check fold turn unless you have some form of note which is indicating otherwise. Pretty good way to describe reverse implied odds. It's a big leak Neil unless you 100% know will won't get involved when you hit a bit like Amatay has done here. Problem is that if you hit big you aren't going to get paid anyway. If you're awesome you can outplay the min raiser but that's some next level shit best left to Dubai. (Cus he's a crab innit) my point was gaining info by leading on the flop, it would of gained much more info and in turn saved him chips, i fully agree about defending blinds too often its a huge leak, unless like said you have good info on him and you think you can out play him, i stand my my word and never in a million years would i fold pre for 40 chips, but never would i have c/c'd the flop either Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: the rage on October 20, 2010, 02:36:29 PM Good thread in my opinion, to highlight the problems of calling raises lightly from the blinds. I will certainly bear the coments in mind.
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: GreekStein on October 20, 2010, 02:38:57 PM never in a million years would i fold pre, not for 40 chips. you need to flop hard to continue though...... other streets a different story, you were getting no information by the way you played the flop turn.......i would of fired a 2/3 or 3/4 pot donk bet on the flop, if he calls you know ur hand is probably no good (but if nitty he may well of folded a better king with the 10 10 on board), raised you snap fold.....but check calling gives you know info what so ever and in the end has cost you more in chips that a donk bet lead on the flop would of. but the way you played the hand you are almost certain to be beat but calling the river bet (although almost certain ur beat) would of give you info on future hands, the way the hand has worked out there are a few hands u are still beating, oppo would play jq pretty much like that possibly qq or jj.....even aq or aj....although these hands unlikely, they are possible Its not the "40 chips" that ur calling now, its the 100 chips ur gona lose on the flop (u say hit hard, but there is no way u can check fold the flop after peeling k7 pre, u have flopped a good board for your hand). Then the 200 chips your gona lose on the turn and etc etc. It really is a huge leak in mtt players to peel weak / marginal hands from the blinds. As played check fold turn unless you have some form of note which is indicating otherwise. Pretty good way to describe reverse implied odds. It's a big leak Neil unless you 100% know will won't get involved when you hit a bit like Amatay has done here. Problem is that if you hit big you aren't going to get paid anyway. If you're awesome you can outplay the min raiser but that's some next level shit best left to Dubai. (Cus he's a crab innit) my point was gaining info by leading on the flop, it would of gained much more info and in turn saved him chips, i fully agree about defending blinds too often its a huge leak, unless like said you have good info on him and you think you can out play him, i stand my my word and never in a million years would i fold pre for 40 chips, but never would i have c/c'd the flop either we don't bet for info. we bet for value and gain info as we do it. Betting for info is sdghs;hg;skghdsgdg Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: geordieneil on October 20, 2010, 02:57:32 PM we don't bet for info. we bet for value and gain info as we do it.
Betting for info is sdghs;hg;skghdsgdg thats pretty much what i meant cos, all betting involves gaining some form of info, check calling gains no info whatsover (not on the tinternet anyway) Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: NigDawG on October 20, 2010, 04:17:53 PM Versus very low stakes players "donk leading" the flop might be a viable strategy...but as soon as you start getting beyond the $20 level you really will struggle to employ this strategy successfully, especially when you're thinking about using it on such a basic level. I mean there's a reason why it's called a "donk bet" in the first place...
Also I think you misunderstand the principle of a bet...here, by your theory, if he calls your bet you're probably beat and if he raises your bet you're beat. We'd also have to make the assumption that if he folds you had the best hand. So this way betting will struggle to get called by worse and never fold out better, so what was the point of the bet in the first place? We want to keep in the hands we beat, now if you'd of said "lead out to induce bluffs" (while I may or may not agree with the effectiveness or suitability of it here) your strategy would actually have some logic. Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: NigDawG on October 20, 2010, 04:25:17 PM And I'd imagine that folding pre loses less money long term than calling and employing any postflop strategy you like here
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: geordieneil on October 20, 2010, 04:34:22 PM And I'd imagine that folding pre loses less money long term than calling and employing any postflop strategy you like here don't disagree with you, i stated that i would call preflop, to face it hit a miracle, coz its very cheap and if hitting hard i could be well paid off. the problem with calling pre is if u hit a bit of a very wet board, imho in the situation that arose u have to lead to see where u are...yes if he calls u r probably beat, if raised definately beat, but also like i said earlier he may well fold a better king if he fears i have the 10. if amatay played the hand this way instead of check calling 2 bets he would of saved quite a few chips. i certaintly dont disagree with folding pre, but myself i'm defo calling.......but thats the beauty of poker we all play different Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: SuuPRlim on October 21, 2010, 12:08:58 AM sometimes Cos, when I bet it isn't for value ;)
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: GreekStein on October 21, 2010, 10:41:42 AM sometimes Cos, when I bet it isn't for value ;) against me, it's always for value Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: Dubai on October 21, 2010, 11:31:06 AM Calling pre here is fine and i dont think its particularly close. In fact i disagree that people "defend too loosly"- at hs mtts online these days people dont "defend" wide enough as they are simply preflop robots
Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: EvilPie on October 21, 2010, 11:43:40 AM Calling pre here is fine and i dont think its particularly close. In fact i disagree that people "defend too loosly"- at hs mtts online these days people dont "defend" wide enough as they are simply preflop robots ....and now we'll get loads of people coming on saying how it's not a leak. fwiw I agree completely with Dubai. It's absolutely fine but you have to know what you're doing and also know a bit about your opponent. If you're not confident of playing oop with marginal holdings then calling is a big leak. If you are confident then it's no problem at all. Personally I would probably call. It's not because I'm confident of my abilities it's because I'm comfortable with having a few leaks. Title: Re: Calling a min raise in the bb with half a hand. Post by: railtard1 on October 21, 2010, 03:14:21 PM Calling pre here is fine and i dont think its particularly close. In fact i disagree that people "defend too loosly"- at hs mtts online these days people dont "defend" wide enough as they are simply preflop robots i flat RIDIC wide in position, but peeling k7 OOP i dont like. i respect ur opinion on this matter, so out of interest, are you peeling 100% of hands here?( I know k7s isnt 100% of hands). or like 70% of hands? Would you still peel vs a very good high stakes mtt reg online who is goin to play very well in position.? |