blonde poker forum

This was a hand posted on another forum. I just found it interesting. (I personally fold this hand pre). What do you think villain can have?

100/100/100 - 100k pot river spot

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Hero: 60k
Villian: 100k
Bb: 30k

Game is 7 handed but other stacks make no difference.
Game is 100/100/100

Hero: Ah3h4cJc

Villian limps utg. Hero limps from mp. Sb checks. Bb raises it 600. Straddle folds. Hero and villian call and sb folds.

Flop: 9h6c4h

Bb checks. Villian bets 1800. Hero call. Bb calls

Turn: 9h6c4h Ac

Bb checks. Villians bets 6k. Hero raises to 24k. Bb folds. Hero calls.

River: 9h6c4h Ac Qd

Villain shoves. Hero ???

Villain is very good live PLO player. Aggressive but knows exactly what is going on in every hand. He views me as assgressive and would see me as the 2nd best player in the game.

I think this is a fold pretty much 100% of the time, barring any rele specific reads.

There is a collection of mega draws that have bricked, but this deep I really dont think without initiative the villain is gonna lead many mega draws that dont include the Ahrt...

River shove is really weird because his range here should really be very few value hands and majority bluff catchers and a few missed draws, so it makes not a huge amount of sense, if i really good player deliberatley takes a mega confusing line ib be pretty happy to give him credit

Incidentally the hero's line in this hand is a total clusterfuck, the over limp pre and the turn raise are an absolute disaster imo

I don't even play this hand pre Dave, let alone limp call with it. ksjg;shg;sg

I'm really confused by the whole hand. It's utterly weird.

I don't understand why villain would shove this river, regardless of his hand. If he's got it, then he should check again I think as all draws bricked, hero is probably shoving. If he does have it, then surely he should get it in on the turn.

I've been chatting to Karl about this hand and it makes so little sense. Only hand that we can put villain on is QQxx with flush draws on the turn. Seems to make sense with the action pre too.

Felt like the hand could provide some good discussion anyway.

Give Rob a nudge and see what he thinks. Hopefully Dubai can post too.

I mean say for example he had a 6678 or something (idk if he'd open limp it pre or not but for example) he leads flop stnd and turn as well once the BB has checked, when hero raises turn his range at this point must be percieved as very strong made hands (better than 66, I dont think he'd expect a value raise from as weak as A4) or massive draws (dbl FD's, sriaght Fd's etc)

I can 100% see the logic behind peeling the turn and jamming safe rivers as he a) can prolly chk/fold certain river cards saving a further 300bb's, and jamming blanks like this makes his line look really bluffy as he reps a missed mega draw pretty accuratley and are certainly a bunch of combo's under in the mega draw catorgory that could hero. Not saying its an optimal line but I can defo see the logic behind it because he might expect to get hero'd taking this line more far more often than he expects the hero to jam missed draws or turn Axxx's or 2p's into bluffs (he clearly wont be expecting a 300bb Vbet from A4 here)

It's a fold for me if the villain is good and mainly because we have the  Ahrt

Without derailing, can i ask why you would consider folding aj34 double suited? I assumed this hand is pritty and would be considered playable in a 7 handed game. 

It's not de-railing mate, any discussion about PLO or the hand is good.

In a 100/100 PLO game I might be wrong but I doubt there's many fish in the game. Jack flush draw is semi useless unless we turn backdoor clubs when we flop pairs / hearts.

It looks a pretty hand but will be pretty badly dominated by hands people play and just generally plays badly - we'll have to just fold loads of flops etc

fwiw i wouldn't be completey against ISO'ing the UTG limp with this hand, but I certainly wouldn't ISO this particular players limp with it and in a live game you're likely to pick some traffic up behind you

= messy OOP pot :(

Dave - can you put that in graphical form please mate ;)

Pretty much my thoughts too.

The turn raise actually can never really be bad (whether its the maximes ev or not is a different question)

What would you flat turn with and shove river?

Well not much to say really, i mean obviously its a terrible spot for him to be bluffing some sort of missed draw but we obv only lose to QQxx realistically, and he has to have combo draws with that such as KQQcc, QQ78hh/cc etc- but given op said he supposed to be good he just must have it

I probably dont have a range that flats the turn and shoves the river.

exactly, nor me, which is why I'm thinking he's maybe not that good.

Another question, if he does have QQ, do you still check? I do.

I have a decent amount of love for the villains line tbh

It's pretty strategically specific so cant really comment if its good/bad tbh but if it's well balanced then it's cool.

Id be flatting entire range on the turn, speshly in this instance where we can play river pretty much perfectly.


Dangerous can of worms you're opening here Karl....

If villain doesn't think hero has a raise fold range on the turn or his raise fold % is lower than the amount that hero will fold to flat turn/shove river then having a range for this is fine. (phewww)

When two very strong ranges interact with each other on this board texture there is only a few equity % either way. It should be obvious then why, if we can get our opponent to fold to a river shove a none 0% of the time flat/jam is the best line. If we both have massive draws (very unlikely here), who's gonna win the pot on a brick! Flat/jam here for example is the correct play http://www.pokerhand.org/?5772585. And slightly different but here http://www.pokerhand.org/?5793806 betting board pairs and diamonds.

Theoretically this seems like the best way to play this spot to me. Practically I have no idea if villain plays this spot like this but I think I would be far too curious to fold given we only have to be good about 1/4 the time.

Why the lead in the first one btw? I don't like betting wraps on a 2-flush board in multiway pots.

Out of the three available buttons Rob only really likes the one on the right

Don't want to derail the thread so I'l just say it's the best of a bad bunch. It gets us in to tough spots in this context obviously but it's just a hand that we have to play with the lead.

Read the OP and some of the posts are quite surprising. Everyone who is good thinks villains line is bad though nobody has really stated a reason good enough for me to change my mind.

Ship Patonius points to tht lil fish :)

If his turn.river thgouht process is in line with your post then ud assume he can take this line for value the same amount of the time, whereas he gains EV form Hero's fold% being marginally higher on the river after flat jam than a turn 3b, He is also gonna take the same line to maximise EV if he thinks we ever have a raise/fold range on the turn.

did we find out what he had?

nope :(