blonde poker forum

Ok here's the scenario:

Comp=£325 mtt with like a £50k pool.

Standard-Pretty bad, lots of overbetting, bad stories, general spews.

Structure-45 mins levels, 20k stack, 3 day event with levels increasing over the days.




Player 1 is pretty typical of the table, plays too many hands, esp oop, and generally seems to think too late and possibly might over analyse certain situations, not appaulling but not great.

Player 2 is a good, solid circuit reg who i respect and have spoken to in the break, has some lag moves but genearlly tag and won't be going crazy early on without some kind of equity.

I've been floating with position a great deal and mostly keeping pots small unless i have the snizzles or semi so. Think my image is as a bit of a peeler and potential bluffer as opponent 2 earlier picked me off on the river wihen i held q high in a relatively small pot with a missed draw i bet the river as i gen thought he cld have missed a draw too, instead i was owned by 3rd pair. :)

Anyway lets get onto the hand.

Player 1=15k stack

Player 2=30k stack

Me=20k stack

Level 3 -75/150

Player 1 donk opens to 700 at 75/150 utg+1. He hasn't overrsd much pre and i'm thinking he's pretty strong here, big aces, or big pairs. I find  3h 3d utg+4, on a ten handed table. I peel thinking i have lovely implied odds here and i'm quite sure 1 or 2 others will come along 2, helping our potential to win big if we get some settage. Folded round to player 2 who peels on the button, his range is pretty wide but i'd expect mostly pocket pairs and std connectors, not too many aces although i have seen him play ak std pretty cautiously previously.

Flop is  3d 8c Ac

Player 1 cbets like 2k quite aggressively into the pot of 2325.

His body language screams ak to me, but as he's the type to make hero laydowns I really don't want him folding and tbh i'd kinda like the button in too on this board, so i peel quickly hoping some1 will think i'm flushing or overplaying some kinda ace. I feel bar maybe on club turns we can build the pot later. Thoughts?

Opponent 2 quickly raises it up to 5.5k, opponent 1 looks like he wants to puke and after tanking for like 3 mins folds what i believe to be possibly aq or ak.

Thoughts now?

After some feedback i'll carry on with the hand. Would really appreciate some people's thoughts on what line's they take here and what range's we can assign player 2. Also do ppl think calling off 5% pre effective is bad here, i thought it was ok as the table was gen passive pre and donkish post where i felt i had an advantage.

call, what's the turn?

I don't see much merit to doing as they say a 'back-raise'  (teehee), if you want to fold either the circuit reg isn't very good or we should fold pre. Depending on the turn card and bet size i'm calling/jamming.

out of interest, do you think the circuit reg would believe that UTG is capable of folding Ak/Aq? I spose if he does it opens a TON of semibluffs into his range - if not then your hand is kinda smack bang in the middle of his value range so just clicking the call button unless something drastic changes seems to be the nest line

fwiw if you think there ARE gonna be semi-bluffs in player 2's range here i dont hate a flop "back-raise" but most of the time live this wont be the case so call call best

ur stack means you basically cannot see the turn. jam over that 5.5

Clear shove for me.

Yeah i think the reg will believe the utg guy can fold aq/ak.

So yeah i think some semi-bluffs can be put in his range, i think a flop back raise is almost similar to going all in though right, prob wld rather just jam and rep a fd, rather than almost turn my hand face up by clicking back.


Kinda agree with this.


Reasoning?


I'm not playing to fold sets on this board, but i'm not loving life either, his play screams of strength to me and pocket 8's kept running through my mind. Obv that's just a cooler and i aint folding here, i'm just looking to make the clear value decision and tbh was torn between jamming and calling. Still not one hundred percent sure either way! I'll leave this open for more comments and post what i did etc this afternoon.

Cheers all for input so far, much appreciated.

Reason? Because you are beind to 1 hand and if he has it it's a cooler

We are not massively worried about being behind, we are worried about folding any potential semi-bluffs and 1 pair, even 2 pair hands.

Thus reasoning over a jam or a call is relevant due to that thing we call value.

I like to fold out any semi bluff here enough in pot already and he is getting good odds for the call with a semi bluff so if you can get rid of that you have your value

yh any flop raise should be an all in agreed me and titface were taking the piss with the "back-raise" comments :)

If you think he is capable of trying to get UTG off AK/AQ opens his range up to some semi-bluffs he'll be forced to call these off when you jam

Villain never has air here cos he's would never be able to fold to UTG so has to have a hand with equity vs AK/AQ (or ahead) as the whole table prolly thinks thats his likely holding

if you CALL this flop, its clear that you wont be folding to a turn jam anyhow given stacksize. Flatting gives some hands a freecard (maybe some spazzy 34cc/45cc) and makes our range look stronger b/c those rare pair/combodraw hands we could have we would generally jam on the flop as our equity would be much higher. jamming will stack the odd AK and a8, flatting wont b/c a lot of cards scare players (needlessly...QJT,club).

i have similar hand in grand prix  get on with it tho coz i get bores easily. i personally think fold coz if you dont learn from your mistakes then you aint learning.

Apologies for being pedantic, but where have you got these numbers from?

this for me

being nitty i can get my head around "not folding bottom set" or "jamming coz if its a cooler so be it". totally understand it being correct play on line when playing many tables and you just move on. but surely in a live situation when you are a long way from home there has to be better spots.

Nice post, and cheers alex too and every1. Seems bit more lucid now than last night.

Ok so here's what happened on the flop.

Maybe due to utg guy making such a hollywood laydown I was now convinced this player didn't hold an ace and was either holding the dreaded eskimos or some kinda fd which he wldnt let go of.

The latter obv aint a problem, but if the former is such a problem i need to retire for being too nitty, this aint the wsop main event with 90 mins plus levels here, this will become a shoot on day 3.

My live nittyness appeared from nowhere and i spazz decided, lets peel as can reevaluate on the hopefully non club turn.

I say nittyness but i also didn't want him folding an ak type hand, even though i'm contradicting my earlier thoughts, sometimes i really just prefer my online bot mode where my chips wlda been in the middle so quick it's unreal.

So i prolly badly decided that i was still deep enough to lay down on club turns and somehow stack him on others.

The turn brought out the  Ad and i felt mixed feelings. If he had a8 then it's now gg, if he did have that ak then wiiiiiiii.

As the turn peeled the utg opponent, who really shldnt take up acting, decided to almost bang the table in frustration, hello mr aq/ak.

Now i felt i was much more likely to be up against a fd or the 88, if it's the latter i'm going broke.

Check or bet here, and if so how much, i guess any pot sized bet from us is effectively allin with like 14k or so back and just over that in the pot.

Do we check and hope he tries to rep something with his fd, or do we bet like 1/3rd-1/2 the pot and hope he gets stubborn with the nfd?

Thoughts appreciated, and yeah i can kinda see how bad my flop reasoning was, still means i'm less rusty for live donkaments in 2011.

If i was ever to peel the flop id never be folding

problem now we have too insanely strong ranges colliding and its very hard to try rep a flush draw because if he doesn't have AK/A8/88 then he will prolly have the nfd which take virtually all the air you overcall the flop with out of your range.

id prolly bet ridic small like 25% pot and just try give him a better proce to stack off on the river

i would definitely not bet. check and call any river bet.

lol what a dick - he is still behind anything he was behind to on the flop.

Cldnt possibly comment...ahem :)

I'd probably call in position but OOP I probably just jam the flop

Check and don't fold.

if he checks what's the riva?

This.  Of course 88 and to a lesser degree A8 is in his range but it is a small enough part of it that you are getting stacks off big aces and possibly nut flush draws that aren't thinking properly.  It is a massively profitable spot.  Don't give them a chance to think about what you might have.

Ok lets wrap this up. :)

I checked, felt this was the best value decision,I could bet like 1/3 of the pot but i'd rather let him semi bluff again if he's flushing and we can always try and do some business on a non ace or 8 river anyways if he checks behind.

That didn't happen as he immediately jammed like 10k in.

Hated it from the way he put the chips in tbh, he screamed strength and i honestly think based purely on this street in a vacuum allowing for deviating from prev thoughts, decisions and thus numerous spews, we can find a fold here.

Having said that if we call pre, if we ov call on flop, i don't truely think we can now go from saying it's a mouse to oh it's actually a lion, strange metaphor i kno but meh.

I sigh got it in and he showed the a8.

No miracle 3 on river, life don't get that good.

Overall i think jam it in on flop, and pretty much that's the simples of it.

All thoughts so far greatly appreciated, any further thoughts on if a fold can ever be found here even more so.

Does worry me that i can be a touch results based, and discussing hands here can only help. :)