blonde poker forum

We're playing 6handed 0.50/1 and everyone limps to my big blind, I check  4c 7c.

Flop:  Ac Qc 5c

SB bets £5, I raise to £15, Villain makes it £35 with £215 back, I cover. SB folds. Hero?

Villain: Old Gibraltarian guy. Played last night, he was buyin in short a lot, going pretty mental with his £40, mostly getting it in pre with junk or calling it off dead on the flop, or with K high no pair no draw on the turn for example. Tonight he has won a few big pots and is playing much deeper (250) more reserved, much less mental. But definitely a terrible player, and will overvalue hands massively. Never folding 2pair on this board for example. Will limp in with any suited cards, raise AQ, AA and QQ but not A5 or 55 or Q5.

£75 and call a shove then. Sounds like you're answering your own question already though.

Any merit to flatting and check-jamming if no club rolls off?

Disclaimer: <--------- cash donk

If he genuinely will play any two suited cards then there is an argument for raising to £75 and folding to a shove but I doubt I can fold and would prob just get it in if he shoved.

Why 75 not 100, or 130? Is the raise amount superfluous because he's never folding any of his 3b range?


there's 2 worse flushes, and 5better ones. as well as his combos of Q5, 55 and A5 can we really make an argument for raise folding £75?

TBH I dont think thereare any worse flushes....even players that play "any two suited cards"are a bit learly about 26s or 36s....suppose 23s is a possibility.  Also most fish slow down on boards like this so when he is shoving you are very likely behind.....I just think there could be better spots but like I said I probably call because I have a flush but I have laid hands down like this before...especially against old guys because they always have it right???

you cant seriously think there are better spots than this??

Sure he can have a better flush, ofc he can. he can also have any set/two pair or 1p and  Ac /  Kc

dong anything else but stacking off given flop action leaves us open to some massive EV mistakes that you're better just stacking off. Dont see any advantage to peeling and raising turn as both ranges stand to loose equity on the turn.

i cant believe some of these PHA's.  Are people taking the p*ss when they ask for advice.  You flop a flush and are not willing to stack off a couple of hundred quid just in case he has a bigger flush?????????  Like the previous poster stated he reraises to £35.  Cant he do this with any two pair/set hand or nut flush draw.  If you dont want to gamble for a bottle in this spot as a decent fav surely 90% of the time you either 1) cant be rolled for the game or 2) need to find a different form of financial investment/hobby.

[  ] tough one

I think the question is is he aggro with the hands or not. He might not be folding 2pr ever but doesnt necessarily mean hes cold 3 betting them on this flop.

Amen to this

This.

He called it off yesterday with K8 on Aq97. He will never ever ever be cold 3betting tiny with  Ahrt Jc type of hands, and never has AK/AQ.

woah so much bs in a such a short post. couldnt disagree more with all of this. firstly, no i'm not taking the piss when I ask for advice. I asked what was the best play, ie how much to raise, or whether there is merit to flatting etc. I'm not considering folding, perfectly willing to stack off £250 with this if i think its the best play. And of course I did stack off. The fact is there aren't that many hands that he is this aggro with on the flop except flushes. As stato says, maybe he's never folding these hands, but does he rele cold 3b Q5 here? probs not.

comfortably rolled for 50/1 tyvm.
 

Who gives a fuck if its "a couple hundred quid"? 

It is bb's and if Alex was posting a 5/10 hand would you say who cares you have a flush its only a couple of thousand? Your post seems really, really naive and it seems like you've not played too much poker when you arent considering any other options when the least aggro player in Spain min cold 3bets a flop and you have a low flush 250bb deep.

Also for people saying this guy can't have 62cc think again, every single suited card is in his range, if not all combinations of every card possible. He's Gibraltarian ffs. I honestly don't think I've ever seen him open fold pre in my life


FWIW, I peel the flop and reavluate on the turn depending on the card.

fold, and thank your opponent for making life easy.

just read the replies, lolz all round.

Whether its £2k or £200 doesnt matter because its assumed you are rolled to play the game.  Therefore stacking off 1 buy in with a flopped flush i would imagine is pretty standard and where i am from you just get your hand in your pocket and reload if its a cooler.

If he has any club 8 or bigger in his hand with no other club then you are a 2/5 shot.
If he has two pair on the flop you are a 1/5 shot.
If he has a set you are a 1/2 shot.
If he has a made flush bigger than yours you are fecked.
If he has a smaller flush you are weighed in.

Given the combos of hands he could have if u dont want to invest 1 buyin into this spot asap (ie get it in on the flop) then i will stand by my initial statement that you are scared of the money involved and/or you should get another hobby because you are too risk averse.  FWIW i would make him having a set here as a strong fav out of all the options.

As he is never bluffing and never folding - our equity vs QQ, 55, A5, Q5 and all flushes:

Board: Ac Qc 5c
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    36.697%     36.70%    00.00%             16712            0.00   { 7c4c }
Hand 1:    63.303%     63.30%    00.00%             28828            0.00   { QQ, 55, A5s, KcJc, KcTc, Kc9c, Kc8c, Kc6c, Kc3c, Kc2c, Q5s, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Jc6c, Jc3c, Jc2c, Tc9c, Tc8c, Tc6c, Tc3c, Tc2c, 9c8c, 9c6c, 9c3c, 9c2c, 8c6c, 8c3c, 8c2c, 6c3c, 6c2c, 3c2c, A5o }

And we are putting in 200 to win 225, easy fold.

edit, misread thought we had 215 for some reason. Odds are even worse than that.

its 250bbs. so thats 2.5 not 1buyin. if u dont think this makes a difference then w/e. why would him having a set be the most likely? theres only 55?! he raises AA and QQ pre. loads more combos or 2pair and flushes. why on earth would a set be the most likely?

So in the worst possible case spot where you rule out him a) folding b) having the nut flush draw c) or him having ak/aq/aj you are still a 7/4 shot to win the hand in the WORST possible case scenario. Assuming a,b and c cant happen are comical imo but to rule all 3 out and you are still a 7/4 shot just shows what an instant gamble this is.  Maybe you should grow some balls and get the money in asap.  

yup i would happily rule out all of those options vs this guy. he's never folding and he doesnt 3b NFD or AK, AQ etc, he just calls.

so would you just fold when he makes it 35?

Also dont you think its highly unlikely he has the nut flush flopped why would he scare 2 punters out of the pot on the flop by making it £35.  Run the stats taking out the king high flopped flush hands and see what the price your hand is good now.  I would be a big price he has flopped the nut flush playing the hand like this.

Yep.

Do you fold your flopped flush face up for £35 as well to add comedy value to the hand for the table??

It' £15 more against this guy who is from a different planet. I peel the £15 for sure. He will give off so much on the turn with his bet sizing/physical tell, so I will never feel like we are being exploited. We're getting close to 4-1 on the flop cawl.

Our hand isn't going to get any stronger and if he's as clueless as you're saying then he isn't ever going to slow down, our odds at this point are irrelevant. As for getting a read, if he doesn't know that he's bluffing with weaker hands than ours then we're going to get the same read when he has Q5 as when he has KJcc, namely "OMGOMGOMG I FLOPPED THE NUTSSSSS"

he doesnt think like that. he is level 1 thinking. if he has the nuts he will raise. if he is drawing to the nuts he will call. end of story.

agree with skol flat calling is the worse move because the hand cant improve and if u flat his raise on the flop surely u are just check calling to the river unless the miracle 4 flush comes on the turn to save you.  ie stacking off bar the change so you might as well get it in first surely?

do 'level 1' thinking players really 4 bet the flopped nuts to scare off 2 players?  I assume by level 1 players you mean donks?  Virtually every shit player i have ever played would flat call in that spot 3 handed.  Even shit players know when they cant get beat (obv they can with a paired board but level 1 players dont think like that) and dont scare fellow players off.

yeh i wanted to get it in on the flop, i didnt think there was any point in flat calling, and risk not getting his stack if he had a worse flush or set/two pair.

I think by calling the flop we get 1 huge street of information, the times he checks back we overbet and get paiiiiid on the river by his overplayed Ax.  I wll call on turns depending on bet sizing/physcial tells, the latter I think are very very overrated but in this case I think Alex could easily soulread the Spantard on the turn.

Also I think a line of calling here, then betting £45 on the turn is pretty nice, I think Spantard will call with everything apart from flushes which I assume he will jam with or at least raise.

what hand did he have fwiw?

how about everyone guesses untill they get it and i'll provide a spot prize.

8 high flush

you win sir!  No need for further entries. 8c 2c. Whats the prize pleno?

When i first read the HH I didn't notice that he put the 3rd bet in cold.....

mmmm, perhaps you're right. If you can legitimately rule out all 1p +  Ac combo's then folding is most likely best as this makes the bulk of hands we're in good shape against. if his range is sets + flushes then yh gotta fold.


Yes. Yes they do. Level one player = bet/raise with good hands, call with OK hands and fold bad hands :)

posted pre this post ^^^^ fwiw

you wouldn't fold though, would you?!

You guys have been telling me he can only have a flush or 55 for that reason I am out

Oh what's my prize fortnight in gib all expenses paid?

no I would have stacked off on the flop most likely, cos would expect to be shown lots of other hands. If i had a strong feeling his range is only sets and flushes then i would fold.


Sorry redarmi, looks like you were most likely right :)

someone run the numbers taking out all the king flushes and i am sure its a def gamble spot given the price.  I am still convinced he is never making the 4bet with the nut flush on the flop into 2 players.

no1 run those numbers! he is wrong. k high flush is perfectly feasible. the only hand i might take out is KJcc as he may raise pre with this.

Video Poker lol.... Flush = 1 Buy in innit

Flush pays 6:1 innit!

This statement is why I would stack off on this board.

but as mentioned before, there's a difference between not folding and cold 3betting.

Point taken

It's actually a very easy fold given that qq aa aq would have raised preflop and sometimes a5 too so all we beat is q5 that sometimes doesnt 3 bet, 55 that sometimes doesnt 3 bet and worse flushes

well it is from that point of view. but when you're in the game praying for those kind of flops to stack these absolute fish then its very hard. You can wait all night to flop a set, straight, two pair, flush against the fish who's dying to give his money away. Then when you finally do, its very hard to fold. I couldn't on this occasion but hopefully in the future I will be able to!

Yeah live poker is boring :P Doubt i'd fold live either unless I was playing well

How about if you flopped the J high flush and face a bet of £25 into a £3.50 pot when you've just sat at  the table with £100?

J high flush is very different because there are realistic flush combo's he can have that we beat, the stack sie difference between 100 and 250 make very little difference

well it does make a difference - means he has to have a worse hand less often for us to show profit - but i dont think our stack affects his range in the slightest

what if u have a 9 high flush and you've been at the table 8 hours but the other bloke has only been there 43 mins?

like

clumsy reference to a comedy hand at DTD last night

lol i was the J hi flush... which one were you?!!

White beard in seat 3 - having to wait my turn to win a pot off the guy in seat 2 :-)

Fun table for that last hour or two.

Been mulling this for a while Dave and I really do think there are better spots in games like this.  Alex may contradict me here but when you are deepish in these low stakes live cash games the bad players will make some pretty big errors but they are very rarely willing to stack off on flushing boards with anything less than a flush.  It is almost as though they have a pathological phobia of flushes but are never, ever willing to fold a flush of their own no matter how small (unless the board is 4 to flush).  If the game was £2-5+ (or even 25c-50c online) I would agree that there are enough bluffs, semi bluffs and 2 pair combos in his range to make getting it in here a very good spot but live I think it plays out differently.  If he has the Kc I would imagine 90% of the time he calls (only real time he wants to 3bet/get it in is with AxKc) rather than 3bets so I really think his range is down to trip 5's and flushes.  Remember he is an old Gibraltarian guy and as much as he was going mental last night when playing short stacked now he has 250bb and is up against someone else similarly deep when he is 3betting here he has a hand like 100% of the time.  As it works out Alex was 100% correct in his read that he massively overvalues hands even though he was in front here. In these kind of games I think the ability find a fold in spots like this is key especially in games with a lot of limpers.

yh after a bit more thought, and re-reading the HH and spotting that he put the 3bet in cold I have to agree with you.

yeh i came round to agreeing with you that it's a fold. but then i saw him last night, playing deep, really tight for a while and then just blows up and shoves randomly with no hand or weak pairs. he was just randomly going mental it was pretty com. makes me feel better bout this hand now.

yh, the JJ hand makes it much more of a call

yeh and yesterday, he checks the turn on A98Kddd, i bet 20, two ppl call, he shoves for 100total, everyone folds, he shows Q9 no diamond!