blonde poker forum

First few hands of the session so not many reads.

Young Guy (£180) opens to £8, Middleaged man (bought in for 500, seen him c/r once and show A9o on Ahigh board), flats the £8, everyone folds maybe one more caller, don't remember.

We find  Ac Kh in the BB playing £350. Raise to £42.

Young guy then 4balls it to £102 with 78 back. Middleaged man casually flats, doesn't look at my stack or seem to regard me at all.

If we shove and lose to the first guy but beat the 2nd guy (who looks in no mood to fold his hand), we lose 140more to the young guy, and win 170 from the other guy.

Is this a clear cut decision one way? I think i've answered by own question by writing this out but go ahead and flame pls...

go all in. it might be closer than it seems but folding has the possibility to be a much larger mistake than getting it in can ever be

obv flatting is a disaster

yes flatting wasn't in my thought process at all. ok let's hear some more responses. the reveal for this one is good.

I'm happy to get it in. Don't really know enough about the players. But presumably the middleaged guy overvalues hands a bit based on A9 checkraise, and guessing he has some money to blow sitting that deep. So i'm happy we're ahead of him. Young guy can easily think you're squeezing or something. Yeah, get it in. I won't guess as to the hands though as you say "the reveal for this one is good" lol

Urgh.....think I fold here against 90% of 1-2 players.  The flat caller would frighten me if I had any idea he was capable but he doesn't seem to be.  Deffo shove or fold but I think I would probably fold and hate my life when the raiser shows J9 or something and the flat caller has 77.....

I'm very happy we're ahead of the other guy. The young guy didn't look like an internet sicko or nething, I thought he was really strong.

When I say the reveal is good, I don't necessarily mean the hands, don't be influenced by that!

is the old guy capable of flatting with QQ+/AK twice? is the young guy a chronic nit? ask yourself these questions before u 3 bet

the old guy never has JJ+/AQ+ here, and never played with the young guy, doubt he's a chronic nit, but doesn't look like a internet wiz either. Assuming the old guy has a very wide range, and the young guy has a strong, but not necessarily narrow range (probably 77+ AT+ KQ+ nt sure how he'd play QJss or 78ss etc though), not 3betting here is surely a mistake?

my assumptions were pretty much the same as yours, why haven't you jammed yet!

what are we putting the young guy on when he 4bets to 102 leaving 78 behind? anything except AA and KK?

i do a fold here as we are usually crushed/our blockers are removed and the other guy probably has a pair and calls it off.

I feel like the old guy had 99-qq/aq/ak alottttt, but obv he doesnt in this scenario.

jam, high 5 seat 1, punch him when ur drawing dead

well the standard get in range here is QQ+ AK and that's worst case.  haven't done the maths but pretty certain that we can get it in with overlay from the old guy and if you start including JJ and AQ or an overcall from the old boy then we are in fist pump territory

we have to be 100% certain the old guyc alls though right

no, he can put in £102 and fold thats fine by me

nope

I think the young guy would jam his QQ and AKs here instead of 4betting. I guess its possible he knows I'll think that this small 4bet looks super strong so might fold AK or QQ eg but seems unlikely he's on that level.

Fwiw I was folding if the old guy folded but with the chance to get my whole stack in vs him, I jammed.

I fold vs kid one, he has to have it but the older guy means we just shouldn't fold.

Give the young guy a ridic tight range (I dont think the small 4b has to be stronger than a jam here)

Hand 0:    42.819%     28.08%    14.74%          14424809      7571040.00   { AcKh }
Hand 1:    57.181%     42.44%    14.74%          21802231      7571040.00   { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }

Assume the old guy folds (nut result) we're geting 138 to win 465 so we need ~29% and lets not forget that we couldbe in much much better shape than this stove

Now trying give the old guy a range this might be ay off IDK


Hand 0:    27.771%     19.49%    08.28%         331889965    140911143.17   { AcKh }
Hand 1:    44.024%     37.23%    06.80%         633809995    115687294.67   { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2:    28.205%     25.55%    02.66%         434934302     45243768.17   { TT-77, AJs-ATs, KQs, AQo+ }

so we're getting 308 to win 1063 so we need ~ 28% but bearing in mind I think these two examples are the worst shape we'll be in unless you have a reason for not wanting to gamble here seems like a stndard get in to me

i hope what is coming here is that the kid has QQ and the old boy has AK also. i can never understand why AK is played so strong and has got you in a spot of bother here with basically ace hi. none the less in the current climate AK is deemed strong enough to 3 and 4 bet with and the main excuse is "fml i ran into AA/KK must be a cooler or i run  so bad i  lost a flip". as the better player i am sure its to your advantage to keep the pot small and play post flop poker. hence flatting seemed the sensible move to me....this way you stack off mr A9 when the A flops unless obv he makes two pair (thats run bad or mini cooler). or if the flop aint to your likeing you get away on the cheap n wait for a better spot.  your 3 bet is i assume to try get either to fold but my rule #1 is you cant make idiots to fold so all your bet is doing is increasing the pot for guys to lick their lips and go "its all mine. £2/£5 here we come." only my opinion and lil dave was not consulted in making any part of this statement.

Young guys ranger should be tighter, old guys wider imo. Fist pumping if the young guy has qq or ak here after the small 4b. Only getting it in cos of old guy.

Your 3bet size is a bit bigger than standard. More like £32 rather than £42, methinks.

Jason, AK is one of the best hands you can get, so why you wouldnt wanna build a big pot with it I dont know. for example Im advocating a get in here with AKo but would be saying TT is an easy fold

I think there were 2callers of the original £8, so between 35 and 45seemed standard. Dw Jason, I didn't think for moment that lildave had been consulted before you wrote that! Two different ways of thinking here though. I prefer to 3bet because they will call with lots of worse hands, so that is how we get value from our hand. With the initiative we can also bluff them off medium/small pairs if the flop comes qxx jxx txx for example, as well as winning much bigger pot on axx or kss vs dominated hands.

Edit: Kxx

AK is in a bad place against these two imo dave. i see no end of guys stacking off with AK in bad shape (AA KK) or racing (any pair) dave. please note the use of brackets to help you dave not often they are stacking off against AQ or AJ (unless an A flops but then as i pointed out you can even stack off A9). i h8 racing but still take the 22 over AK heads up

But you talked about 3betting. Would you not even 3bet AK? Not saying get it in, but to one raise, would you not re(back)raise?

i wouldnt be very happy finding myself in the position Alex wound up and in a lot of situation when UTG (tightish player) opens and only one person calls then flatting AK is the best play.

In this situation it is ridiculous to not want to pump up the pot and isolate the fish this deep. The point of 3betting is for the fish not to fold but to put us in a position where its possible to win his whole stack.

It worked out weird as utg doesnt jam and fish smooth calls, both these things happening is v unlikely and if either of them does not happen then it is pretty simple. Going on about how people over play AK and it not being a made hand etc etc just seems like results orientated selective memory to me. AK is constantly putting us in position where we are winning so much more money in other ways when we 3 or 4 bet with it that it easily covers infrequent losses to AA/KK. 


fwiw i dont know what u do now. Best guess is the old guy has 77-JJ or AQ and were crushed by UTG. I very quickly try and decide whether old guy sigh folds if we jam.

Yeah when we 3bet the fish usually folds, calling in position and playig a pot WITH the fish in is good strategy imo.

Happy to get it in vs young guys QQ with £102 of dead money in there

Defintely not giving the old guy credit for being able to flat QQ+/AK twice pre, we always have him crushed equity wise either by him having a worse Ax or Kx or by us getting great odds on a flip vs QQ and his 99/TT

who says he opened it utg

This hand has tilted me now

THE REVEAL...

I shove. Young guy snaps it off. The old guy gets a count, and calls pretty quickly. We all showed our hands.

Young Guy:  Ad Aspades
Me:  Ac Kh
Old Guy:  4d 4h

Sighhhh

You made a frush right?

Either that or you said 'PLAY WORSE DICKHEAD' and stormed off :)

The only way i dont shove in here is if i get struck down by lightning before i get the chance.  Youre prob not in great shape but you definitely definitely definitely are getting enough equity versus ranges.

Even if you get called by aces youve always got two flush draws..............

Board runs out  3s 6c 7c

 5c....

 Jc

I told the aces guy he was a moron for turning his hand faceup and getting it in with one pair when there was 4 to a straight and 4 to a flush.

I sarcastically told the guy with 44 he made a great read pre that I had AK and the other guy probs had blockers so was in great shape and really unlucky not to scoop because he had a straight and got rivered.

Then I asked the dealer for a tray and went to play 50/1.

pmsl. Wp nh? See the way i play it we play a small pot and get most of the dough in when i make the nuts. I never put a penny in behind unless i have implied odds. Tongue in cheek. One word about attitude. You are lucky not to have spent at least one night in the boot of someones car but thankfully we play with nice people in dtd and not the drug dealing money laundering perverts and pimps that in not so long times ago we had to earn a crust from.
Just one final aside to this hand. I pick ten guys who have been playing poker for ten years. All have over half a million earnings on hendon mob. 5 who take the cautious approach and treat AK as ace high like me have plenty of roll good investments and a nice life. The other 5 who are more than happy to play AK fast and hard are still with us but today dont have a penny to scratch their arses with and can be seen in dtd / casinos etc asking to borrow the buyy in for the next game. We all know who they are. Legends but degens who become victims of the wheel craps n black jack

lol

played more aggressive in dec n jan and  found that i was walking out the door having ran AK into a better hand or lost a race. went back to knitting in feb and got 3rd in dtd deepstack. certain styles work for certain players. what you need to do is find your best game and play it. no one plays your game better than you. poker is very much results driven and final tables never are contested by 9 nits or 9 super aggros imo.

LMAO

LOL you hate racing so you'd rather have a hand that's "racing" against a few hands, dominated by 2 and dominating loads, to a hand that is dominated by loads of hands, and "racing" with all the hands that doesn't dominate it?

this must be a level because no proffessional player could ever make a living out of the game with such a flawed understanding of basic equities

I really don't think it's a level. Jason, PM sent.

Nothing much to add but follow Smashedagains advice and you won't go far wrong.

I really would fold pre

i won the hand = i played it well

/thread

spend it wisely kid x

There ought to be a minimum level of competence for posting advice in PHA. However you look at this type of post it is short of that level. Add to it the 22 is better than AK heads-up and surely it´s time to take a break from posting flawed thinking and even more flawed cliches itt. Use the thread as the learning facility it is meant to be, especially with people like geeforce posting at the moment the opportunity to learn is huge.

 ;tightend; ;tightend;

are you really telling me that you dount know that heads up AK is not beating 22. Although its a flip the 22 wins the contest 52% of the time. My whole point about not  being a fan of races is this. Why when i am the better poker player would i be willing to chuck all my money in on a race when i could have saved a lot of time and just backed red or black. Obv there are times when races become un avoidable and you need to win these to go deep. But if i'm controling the pots and the game then why rely on pre flop luck. The tournies i play are 2 day minmum and mostly 3 or 4 days all in the £300 to £1500 price range and my cash ratio is about 35% over an 18 month period. (was a lot higher prior to dec jan). If i were to willing to chuck it in with AK racing then i'm sure i would not even cash 10% of the time. (i consider a 10% cash ratio aveerage as this is the usual amount paid out in the money) . There is an arguement that if you hold AK and play a flop you dont get paid by QQ when an ace or king hits. This is bollox coz in these games 90% of the players are idiots and cant fold so pay you any way. Same holding QQ v villans AK...no AK on the board and as sure as eggs are eggs idiots are still gonna put all their money in with AK coz its massive innit.Its common sense that mathematically if you race just twice then you are gonna lose one. This thinking of valuing AK as just ace high pre flop works well for satellites even better. I give advice and mentoring to a few people who are all winners in the game. 1 guy has played every single game £300 and above at dtd since last january (19 tournies in total) and has won a seat to 18 of them at 1st or 2nd attempt and never spent more than$90 on any seat. I am not aware of who kukuskin is in the real world but would be suprised to find out if he actually played poker for a living

The point that you are missing is that how AK plays vs 22 is of no interest to anyone, not since Super System 2 was a poker players bible anyway. How the 2 hands play against the range of hands that the villain can reasonably be expected to hold is of interest.

A debate on such a trivially obvious concept is of little use to anyone here, so lets just draw a line under it. Please accept what I wrote in my previous as friendly advice.

gl at the tables I hope your run of success continues.

we are not talking about how the two hands PLAY. We were on about all in pre. No play just flipping. Obv i value AK more as hand when playing the game. Small pairs cause pain (ref. Flopping a set of two's in small blind V paul ho).I aint wanting to upset anyone either.

omg smashedagain MUST be levelling.

no I'm just a bit thick. What does levelling mean. And flaming as well please.

yh, this is a valid point, but in this example someone has bet £102 out of their £180 stack so i reckon the day of pot control are behind us in this hand :)

Nice long post about avoiding flips etc in tournaments. A bit pointless though seeing as this is a thread about a cash hand where avoiding a flip with potential dead money in the middle would be clear mistake.

Think the bit about posters having a certain level of competence is unnecessary though, people should be encouraged to post.

Back to the hand-I know this is live cash but your initial 3bet is quite chunky-I guess you had already subconsciously committed yourself to the hand. Don't mind either option that much in reality.

dave n dozers points are valid. I do tend to get a bit side tracked n moan on. When not at the park, cheeky chimps or playing monsters i have to sit through endless kids tv.

tweenie clock, whhhhhhherrrrrrrrre will it stop?

Just cause im stuck in bed and bored


Hand   Equity   Wins   Ties
asks   49.89%   5,092,608   66,687
22   50.11%   5,114,529   66,687

VS top 10%

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    40.101%     39.74%    00.36%         530831496      4757730.00   { 22 }
Hand 1:    59.899%     59.54%    00.36%         795250164      4757730.00   { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    59.771%     54.94%    04.83%         380076640     33400274.00   { AKs }
Hand 1:    40.229%     35.40%    04.83%         244893628     33400274.00   { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

VS top 25%

equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    45.198%     44.76%    00.44%        1526674512     14999340.00   { 22 }
Hand 1:    54.802%     54.36%    00.44%        1854236376     14999340.00   { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }

equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    65.397%     63.00%    02.40%        1178007768     44818100.00   { AKs }
Hand 1:    34.603%     32.21%    02.40%         602192000     44818100.00   { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }

VS any random hand


equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    50.334%     49.39%    00.95%        6215338932    119416020.00  { 22 }
Hand 1:    49.666%     48.72%    00.95%        6131263428    119416020.00   { random }

equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    67.045%    66.22%    00.83%        5556016860     69221952.00   { AKs }
Hand 1:    32.955%     32.13%    00.83%        2695828836     69221952.00   { random }

Obviously this couldn't have been much more of a waste of time but I've been in bed for like 5 days I can live with that

and also
#Invalid YouTube Link#

the AK was off suit....quickly

 if you're never getting ak pf as a FAV dominating hands then you are not 3betting enough. if your are 3betting lots, then 3bet some more, b/c if you cant 3bet to 5bet jam profitably (i assure you in general terms this is more profitable 100bb deep) then you are not putting enough pressure on ppl pf. i am not saying you have to 3bet ak everytime, sometimes i flat and wait for a squeeze behind etc but 98% of the time i am looking to play for stacks.

you obv have your own style, which is fine, but to group ppl that get in ak pf as ppl that just rely of pf luck is more down to the limitations in ur style (sry not trying to attack you here). it works for you right now in soft games (and lowers your variance), but how do you think it would fair if people werent eggy idiots?

no idea how this thread is still going

Im pretty sure Im 75% responsible lol

i must be the other 25% then ..hendonmob profile geeforce?

isnt that just my name?

If Geeforce is an online player or a live/online cash player, what difference would his hendon mob make?

Out of interest Jason, how much do you think you've spent on tournaments that are eligible to be shown on THM results since you've been playing poker?


All I know about Geeforce is that he's a Gent.

i've won seats o 90% of what i played cos.from wsop n irish open down to £300 deepstack. alot of people talk the talk but as for walk the walk they may as well be in a wheel chair

huh?

if its the same guy, geeforce does pretty well on ipoker 5/10 and 10/20. certainly caused me enough problems!  i've never heard of smashedagain

rofl at Jason calling dave out on his hendon mob

o dear o dear o dear

Nice to see you took on board what I said about potentially embarrassing posts. This ^^ is probably your worst yet.

Jason, you've just made yourself look like a right plank.

I once heard you say "if they were making money playing poker (referring to me and lil dave) then I'd know who they are.." Yet you don't know who Geeforce is, despite him being a well respected British tourney and cash player who has been around for a while and proven himself at both.

"Hendon mob" is a great general guide to someones results, but by no means a measure for how good they are, and using it as a tool to call someone out just proves how ignorant and delusional you are about the poker world and how it works.

Get a job.

and why i hate forums

can of worms officially opened

but how cool is my new picture
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

then i say sorry to anyone who i offended. i am obv the one in the wrong here.

I think we've played abit against each other on stars if your who i think you are.

lol @ comparing someones ability by their HMDB

i mean this guy just luck boxed 1 score right? Useless mostly i hear

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=56164

/thread Jason you baguette.

said sorry what more do you want? Whats jerry yangs hendon mob look like

i am sorry smashedagain is tilting me

i would rather have AK than any pair upto TT and possibly JJ if i was going ALL in preflop against an unknown hand

obviously if i had the choice of 2 known hands 22 and AK i would take the 22 but against an unkown hand AK is massive over 22 and big over TT

i am sure i had this debate a couple of months ago and after figures were ran someone who had disagreed with me was convinced

AK is 3rd or 4th best hand in holdem for a reason and 22 isnt in the top 50 for a reason

oh yeah i am in a wheelchair but think i can walk the walk with you even if i dont play often

omg i am such a twat. sorry never even thought. am old enough to know who ironside was too. i will try to delete  that post