blonde poker forum

Playing 2 tables and hes ran like god against me winning 5 flips or something. Think that he will think I'm on tilt, he sat out vs me before and i searched and sat him and he sigh played. Thoughts on everything including his play pls.

Full Tilt Poker Game #28911939980: Table Cramp (heads up, deep) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:26:01 ET - 2011/03/10
Seat 1: jackbauerz ($200)
Seat 2: pads1161 ($264.50)
jackbauerz posts the small blind of $1
pads1161 posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [Ac 8c]
jackbauerz raises to $6
pads1161 calls $4
*** FLOP *** [8s 4h 5s]
pads1161 checks
jackbauerz bets $9
pads1161 raises to $27.50
jackbauerz has 15 seconds left to act
jackbauerz calls $18.50
*** TURN *** [8s 4h 5s] [9h]
pads1161 bets $42
jackbauerz has 15 seconds left to act
jackbauerz calls $42
*** RIVER *** [8s 4h 5s 9h] [Jd]
pads1161 checks
jackbauerz has 15 seconds left to act
jackbauerz bets $124.50, and is all in
pads1161 calls $124.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jackbauerz shows [8h 6c] a pair of Eights
pads1161 shows [Ac 8c] a pair of Eights
pads1161 wins the pot ($399.50) with a pair of Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $400 | Rake $0.50
Board: [8s 4h 5s 9h Jd]
Seat 1: jackbauerz (small blind) showed [8h 6c] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 2: pads1161 (big blind) showed [Ac 8c] and won ($399.50) with a pair of Eights

the c/r is really bad. Leading or c/c are better, since theres a ton of bad turn cards. Also if you c/r tptk on this board, ure going to be very unbalanced. Not a problem against droolers, but any1 with a few cells will be able to take advantage and make your life differcult.

After that yeh your line is fine. I have no idea what hes doing OTR.

Yeah, I never c/r these kind of hands ever but vs this player it was v.good. We had different dynamics going on and yeah, v.happy with flop vs this guy.

I guess I should have named the title river play 200nlhu because hard to describe flop dynamics, but then again I guess it contributes to the river.

I couldn't work out if it was a super thin value shove on river to get me to call 56,75 kinda hands or if he was just clicking buttons.

If you are in opponents shoes what do you jam the river for as value and what as bluff and do you have both bluffs and value in your river shoving range and is 9x a standard jam for value on the river?

river jamming ranges are the most dynamic dependant thing i can think of in poker so its hard to say.

i would say the river jam is 100% a bluff by him. It looks like u binked a 9 or something and if i had a missed draw with zero showdown vlaue here i would jam it too. i would also jam as low as 1010 a reasonable amount of the time in these levelling spots. I think his play on every street is bad but perhaps his river shove is the least bad once he gets there.

i agree with the point about the flop c.r. being too light even with crazy dynamics. Lots of the time the draw binks and you have to turn ur hand into a bluff and have no idea what your facing. i love a c.r here with A9 on 945 flop.

yeah i agree that a9 on 954 is alooooot better than a8 here. very good point.

also although he thinks that my range will contain more draws because its a flushdraw board I am actually alot less likely to c/r on this board as a bluff because I know he will give me less credit.  So I can rep lots of missed draws later on and get heroed by a bunch of hands, he may even defend flop with ace high. With this above statement maybe I should jam the river for value, I guess he would call?  I'm a little confused about what you say about turning my hand into a bluff when the draws miss though, I think this is v.v. unlikely to happen.

I'm also intrigued that you think he played bad on every street how would you play flop/turn if you were in villans pos?

I think his river jam might be perfectly fine (could well be a terrible play in this vacuum) pot is $151 and he has $124.50 back and he has near the bottom of his range, whenever I get to this spot with the bottom 20%ish of my range I pretty much always jam.

Problem with this play in this specific spot is that you should jam most of your air OTR so prolly have a pretty wide c/c range, you need to be folding ~70% and calling worse every so often to show a profit specifically here so this play in a vacuum is pretty likely -EV but I think for his overall range its a kind of mandatory rive jam

which better hands fold, which worse hands call? I think none to both so jam seems bad to me but idk I may be wrong. I was expecting him to have spades and just hoped he didnt have Jxss, when I saw his hand turn over I immediately though sighhhhh two purrrrrr but then realised owaitorly?

bonnie tyler

I'm 22..

Those were the days my friend? Or, Totak Eclispe of the heart?

I did say this is prolly a pretty bad vacuum play, you dont fold or call worse anywhere near often enough to show profit here, but for his overall range in a lengthy HU game if's he jamming missed spades here he should be jamming this too imo

get cape,wear cape, fly  (for the 22 year olds itt)

Really?  interesting (said in normal voice incase everyone thinks i troll 24/7) its a nice river concept but quite hard for me to think about.

lol naming random bands to level me? no idea what you're on about but sure its fantastic bants.

well perhaps in this specific spot a check back is best - even though he rarely has the best hand once you check the river, but this about it in overall theory

lets say the board is  6c 8s 5h Kh Qd and you've taken the exact same line, if he is jamming is air, chking back marginal showdown ( 6c 7s,  8c Td etc) and jamming all strong value (as most people would) then he can't really a)expect it to get through all that often when he jams the bottom of his range, or b) value bet stuff like  Ac 6s or  7s 8c, and should prolly chk back  9s 9h aswel....

if he jams the middle section of his range as well he'll take you off hands with equal value, and get hero'd more often cos he's jamming the river with a wider, less polarised range.

like I say tho, in the example you've given I think its almost certainly a -EV shove in this vacuum

I hate his river jam.

yea agreed. Its a really important showdown to see in a 2tabling match, and he has a reasonable pair jamming seems horrific.

he does rarely have the best hand on the river though.

If he doesn't jam this hand then calling  river Ac 8c would prolly be bad also

TBH he was probly just rolling his face in his keyboard

so what is peoples opinion on my river call? bad?

The shove and call are both bad- especially if villain thinks you are on tilt.

So you prefer to jam river then cal?

shove>c/f>>>>>>>c/c?

Hhahahahaha just perfect.

yeah shoving river defo better than c/c unless your giving up with your missed Fd's sometimes

Whats he repping when he jams river though? Jxss is inly hands that beat me except J8. I think he checks almost everything else behind. We had dynamic of 3betting the flop so this would be a great spot OTF. As my value raising range on the flop is (he perceives) small.

Just for clarity, I agree that this is a terrible shove in this vacuum, but I dont think jamming these hands in these spots is bad at all

Yeah was gd skype discussion, enjoyed it.

+1 I think i'm far too PLO'd to be any use in these NL discussions when you got JP pleno dubai ITT :(

Some really good discussion in pha atm

dont c/r w/a8 kids.

Full Tilt Poker Game #28954685954: Table Hart (heads up) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 09:04:19 ET - 2011/03/12
Seat 1: W1NN1ETHEP00H ($178.30)
Seat 2: pads1161 ($100)
pads1161 posts the small blind of $0.50
W1NN1ETHEP00H posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [9d 9c]
pads1161 raises to $3
W1NN1ETHEP00H calls $2
*** FLOP *** [6c 8c 3d]
W1NN1ETHEP00H checks
pads1161 bets $5
W1NN1ETHEP00H has 15 seconds left to act
W1NN1ETHEP00H raises to $16.20
pads1161 has 15 seconds left to act
pads1161 raises to $36.75
W1NN1ETHEP00H raises to $175.30, and is all in
pads1161 calls $60.25, and is all in
W1NN1ETHEP00H shows [As 8s]
pads1161 shows [9d 9c]
Uncalled bet of $78.30 returned to W1NN1ETHEP00H
*** TURN *** [6c 8c 3d] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [6c 8c 3d 3c] [7h]
W1NN1ETHEP00H shows two pair, Eights and Threes
pads1161 shows two pair, Nines and Threes
pads1161 wins the pot ($199.50) with two pair, Nines and Threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $200 | Rake $0.50
Board: [6c 8c 3d 3c 7h]
Seat 1: W1NN1ETHEP00H (big blind) showed [As 8s] and lost with two pair, Eights and Threes
Seat 2: pads1161 (small blind) showed [9d 9c] and won ($199.50) with two pair, Nines and Threes

if you had K8 instead of 99 would you stack off/play it the same?

I've had some really sick discussions about this hand

Shareeeeeee

[12/03/2011 01:43:42] David Nicholson: do you think in an overall perspective for your range, if you dont jam here you cant jam hands like TT?
[12/03/2011 01:44:31] mathew frankland: nah not at all
[12/03/2011 01:44:40] mathew frankland: since alot of pads check calling range on the river
[12/03/2011 01:44:44] mathew frankland: is going to be 8x and 9x's
[12/03/2011 01:44:54] David Nicholson: wat about K8
[12/03/2011 01:44:54] mathew frankland: which 86 does bad against
[12/03/2011 01:45:00] mathew frankland: i think k8 is closer
[12/03/2011 01:45:11] mathew frankland: more boarderline
[12/03/2011 01:45:24] mathew frankland: ye i think my cut off might bhe A8 acctully
[12/03/2011 01:46:00] mathew frankland: i think our river range shud be something like
[12/03/2011 01:46:08] mathew frankland: A8+, bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:46:11] David Nicholson: like if he jams strong premium and air - if he has sufficient air in his range, hands ilke Q8 and T9 can call and auto profit
[12/03/2011 01:47:29] David Nicholson: if he is jamming K8+ hands like A8 and T9 can't call inexploitabley
[12/03/2011 01:47:45] mathew frankland: the objective of our "balanced range" is that we're doing better against his calling/money we pick up from him folding incorectly with each hand
[12/03/2011 01:47:59] mathew frankland: and i dont think were going to be doing this with a hand as low as 86
[12/03/2011 01:48:18] mathew frankland: ye ^^ is true in some situations but i dont think its going to be the case in this spot
[12/03/2011 01:48:24] David Nicholson: yeah
[12/03/2011 01:48:27] mathew frankland: since were calling $124 into $275
[12/03/2011 01:48:40] mathew frankland: which meens we need to be 31%
[12/03/2011 01:48:56] David Nicholson: yh I spose pretty easy call for any 9x rele
[12/03/2011 01:49:12] mathew frankland: which meens that for A8 to be a bad call he needs to have "it" 2 times as much as he has bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:49:21] mathew frankland: and on this board hes going to have a fair few bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:49:29] mathew frankland: therefore i think 86 is way too low on the spectrum
[12/03/2011 01:50:16] David Nicholson: arrrrr I see cos I was thinking, he may as well have this hand in his bluffing range with missed stuff, as he does terribley against any value range that checks
[12/03/2011 01:50:23] mathew frankland: infact acctully he mite not have that many bluffs...
[12/03/2011 01:50:25] mathew frankland: cos i cant think of a spade draw that doesnt get it in on the flop
[12/03/2011 01:50:26] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:50:35] David Nicholson: so you;'re saying the best strategy here
[12/03/2011 01:50:48] David Nicholson: would be to Vbet wider, and bluff much less
[12/03/2011 01:50:49] mathew frankland: so maybe A8 is a bad call
[12/03/2011 01:51:01] mathew frankland: doesnt meen i'm a fan of the shove either tho
[12/03/2011 01:51:10] mathew frankland: cos i dont think hes folding out anywhere near enough of the check calling range
[12/03/2011 01:51:21] David Nicholson: and he rarely has the best hand when chked to
[12/03/2011 01:51:42] mathew frankland: i think its way too strong of a hand to turn into a bluff
[12/03/2011 01:51:48] David Nicholson: so really, he shouldn;t jam anywhere near 100% of his air - if he has much
[12/03/2011 01:51:50] mathew frankland: and far to weak to be going for value
[12/03/2011 01:52:24] mathew frankland: for instance we shud be having maybe top 45% check back 40% and jam bottom 15
[12/03/2011 01:52:42] mathew frankland: i think he probably should jam alot of his air looking at this again
[12/03/2011 01:52:48] mathew frankland: cos i can hardly see a hand that is air tbh
[12/03/2011 01:54:02] David Nicholson: but when the guy chks the river, he caps his range pretty much to mid value(bluff catchers) and air that has given up
[12/03/2011 01:54:21] mathew frankland: ye true, but all his mid value bluff catchers beat us
[12/03/2011 01:54:43] David Nicholson: and like you say if he needs to be vbetting 2:1 on his bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:55:08] David Nicholson: he needs to be getting spades in OTF and chking back when he gets there with airballs reasonable chunk of the time to make K8 a bad call?
[12/03/2011 01:55:22] mathew frankland: what air does he have?
[12/03/2011 01:55:40] mathew frankland: im struggling to find 1 air hand now looking at it
[12/03/2011 01:55:45] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:57:39] David Nicholson: so if he can jam most of his air because he has some few airballs, then wats the difference between this hand and missed spades when 86 plays so terribley against any legit value hand?
[12/03/2011 01:58:30] mathew frankland: the price were laying the guy
[12/03/2011 01:58:47] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:58:48] mathew frankland: ur basically calling 86 our air
[12/03/2011 01:58:57] David Nicholson: so if we have this in or bluffing range
[12/03/2011 01:58:59] mathew frankland: but were just never getting him off a 9
[12/03/2011 01:59:11] mathew frankland: and hes prolly hardly ever folding an 8
[12/03/2011 01:59:18] mathew frankland: were just not going to make him fold enough
[12/03/2011 01:59:19] David Nicholson: so by that logic if we're facing such a wide c/c range we need to be bluffing actually never + let the c/caller make bad calls
[12/03/2011 01:59:55] mathew frankland: o god i dont know
[12/03/2011 02:00:02] David Nicholson: intersting this 2card malarky
[12/03/2011 02:00:07] mathew frankland: i think its a bad shove cos hes prolly not guna fold things like 8s
[12/03/2011 02:00:16] mathew frankland: but i'm not saying good 8s are a good call
[12/03/2011 02:00:16] David Nicholson: yh agreed
[12/03/2011 02:00:29] mathew frankland: with what we've worked out good 8s are probably a bad call
[12/03/2011 02:00:32] mathew frankland: unless!
[12/03/2011 02:00:39] mathew frankland: you factor back in turning weak 8s into a bluff
[12/03/2011 02:00:40] David Nicholson: if he's jamming 86o
[12/03/2011 02:00:54] David Nicholson: lol
[12/03/2011 02:00:55] mathew frankland: but we could keep going round in circles with theory like that forever
[12/03/2011 02:00:59] mathew frankland: fact of the matter is
[12/03/2011 02:01:00] David Nicholson: we just shouldn't jam this river ever but value till the oppo adjusts by folding out the bottom of his c/c value range
[12/03/2011 02:01:04] mathew frankland: yh were not folding out enough to jam 86
[12/03/2011 02:01:15] mathew frankland: therefore its a bad shove regardless of if the guys call is bad or not
[12/03/2011 02:01:27] David Nicholson: and he sholdnt be jamming enough to make A8 a good call
[12/03/2011 02:01:32] mathew frankland: the guys call is what it is we should try to define our range to play profitably against the guy infront of us
[12/03/2011 02:01:35] mathew frankland: ye
[12/03/2011 02:02:32] David Nicholson: so, basically, if he isnt jamming 86o A8 is a bad call, and he shouldnt ever jam 86o because it makes it a call for A8
[12/03/2011 02:02:44] David Nicholson: so no1 should be jamming or calling lol
[12/03/2011 02:03:06] mathew frankland: no one shud be doing anything dave!
[12/03/2011 02:03:11] David Nicholson: just chk boys
[12/03/2011 02:03:17] David Nicholson: the middle btn its fine :P
[12/03/2011 02:03:18] mathew frankland: lol
[12/03/2011 02:03:36] mathew frankland: well
[12/03/2011 02:03:46] mathew frankland: what shud we do on the turn
[12/03/2011 02:03:52] mathew frankland: if were turning 8x into a bluff on the river
[12/03/2011 02:04:11] mathew frankland: because were now calling with a hand
[12/03/2011 02:04:24] mathew frankland: that we dont think is ahead of his value range
[12/03/2011 02:04:31] mathew frankland: so therefore depending on his drawing range
[12/03/2011 02:04:40] mathew frankland: shouldnt we be shoving the turn or folding it
[12/03/2011 02:04:48] mathew frankland: never mind his value range anyway, his checking the river range
[12/03/2011 02:04:56] mathew frankland: which isnt even up there in his value range!!
[12/03/2011 02:05:17] mathew frankland: regardless tho
[12/03/2011 02:05:26] mathew frankland: i've apsolutly millioned my timebank by now

I  3h ickle dave!!!

woahhhhh

:):

basically how to have a 15 minute sykpe chat and provide absolutely nothing conclusive lol

I think pleno was much more right than i thought when i was talking with him on this hand on skype, my head is turned by PLO where you have more value/bluff combo's on average