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I'm not an animal rights campaigner, a happy clapper, a tree hugger, a veggie, or a shrinking violet, (Appologies to anyone who falls into any or all of those worthy categories, no offence intended) but I can't help thinking that it's a bit unfair to make horse run a race when it stands a reasonable chance of being killed.

Is the National more dangerous than any other race? I know nowt about horse racing, its the biggest in terms of number of horses I take it?

Completely agree.  Sure some of them have the ability to get over the jumps, but when nearly half the field fails to complete the course and two die - something's very wrong there.

Bet the organisers are scratching their heads. Much lower fences but loads of fallers over the 3 days. Just heard a jockey is in a coma from a fall.

Hard ground, they go faster. Bigger impact falls when they do tip up. Also there are horses in the national, no hopers and poor jumpers, that shouldn't be running

Firmer ground, very warm day = casualties.

Mind you, having said that, if it had been a mud bath even less would have finished, and the ones that did would most probably be walking over the line.

It's a weird one this.

In the 70s and 80s, 3-5 horses died every time during the National. The race was on it's last legs- if you owned a decent animal, you wouldn't let it run because of the high chance of it being killed. They were down to starting the race with 20 runners at one point. These days they could have 80 runners if they hadn't capped it at 40.

Since the 90s they have progressively made the fences easier. There hasn't been a death for 4-5 years now until this year.

Now I'm not saying that people should or shouldn't be concerned about dead horses. However it is interesting that lots of people seem to be concerned about the horse deaths this year, when, statistically, the National is the safest it's ever been. It's an interesting shot into people's psyche that there has been this big outcry this year. I think it is because of a) people's ever changing relationship with animals, b)  the explicit shots of the dead horse under the canvas next to one of the fences and c) notably, the shock after several fatality free years.

That's not true any more. There are maybe 100 or so horses that wanted to go, and only the best 40 according to the handicapper get in.

b) above is definitely true. Felt very uncomfortable to watch them miss two fences second time round, only uncomfortable as two horses were lying stricken on the landing side of the fences. First time I can remember seeing that.

Anyway, as the posts above say, its a combination of circumstances

That's always been true and that's part of the appeal of the race. The Grand National is popular because it's like a lottery. Any horse can win! You are going to get a winning price greater than 10/1! It's like a scratchcard.

Nobody wants to run an office sweepstake on most horse races (say the Derby), since there are not enough runners, and a few runners have a dramatically greater chance than the rest. Because of the high fences, high number of fallers, and the fact it's a handicap it evens up the playing field a lot.

It's only been the last few years that this has been possible. Around 2007 they put the escape routes around the edge of the fences to help with loose horses like at most race courses. Previously there was no "around the fences", you couldn't get around the course with out going over the fences.

I've no idea what they did with stricken horses in previous years when they couldn't redirect the field around a fence.

Yes, but still my point is 10-15 of those 40 are no hopers assuming normal weather conditions (ie as mudbath makes anything possible)

In some cases the desire of the owner to have a day out (with all the perks of being an owner, on the day) overrules commons sense. The two sadly killed horses were both in this category I would maintain

In 14 of the last 15 nationals a horse in the handicap, and with a decent perceived chance beforehand has won.

All the horses are in the handicap!!!! Look at the card- none of them are even carrying the minimum weight. Besides any horse in the race yesterday the BHB handicapper has judged to be better than at least 40 horses, and all horses that are entered have to have a minimum rating of 110, which while not amazing, is better than some.

Blimey you are argumentative. In most nationals horses in the top 40 have are rated less than 10st, and so are running out of the handicap

afaik no horse has won the national from outside the handicap since the fences were made easier.

All of the horses this year were in the handicap, the bottom weight carrying 10st.2lbs with a rating of 138.

Dooney's Gate had an official rating of 154, and Ornais 140. Both very decent horses especially the former.

Yes but you are missing my point. Both 100-1+ shots. No hopers in the context of this race, in the conditions the race is now run in.

I expect Mon Mome would have been in that category last year.

Seeing the horses lying stricken on the landing side of the fences is definitely a big factor.

More than once I have been in the unfortunate position of trying to restrain a badly injured horse while waiting for someone to arrive with a humane killer. Usually, its a bad leg break.

Sitting on an injured horse's head, getting covered in blood while trying to avoid being disembowelled by the sharp end of a broken bone as it thrashes around kind of makes an impression on you....

Hi Skippy Where do you get the above information please. I can't remember 20 Runners ever. I think the Equine Fatalities you quoted as an average of the Aintree Festival rather than a single Grand National race.

I personally think they need to change the whole Aintree race meeting. 2011 and killing horses for entertainment. Nothing is right about that.

Regards

M

Its difficult. National Hunt Horses are built for jumping fences, big fences and they love racing and this is the biggest day of the year for them. They wouldn't just want to sit in a field and never do what they are all about.

But then again imagine how the owners and stable staff feel when the horse has to be killed, absolute devastating and I imagine the horse isn't too chuffed either.

I don't really get Tighty's argument, both horses were highly rated and on their day could've gone very close to winning the race, like many other 100/1 shots have done in the past. You see the way the 41st horse in the ratings Always Waining ran on Friday in winning the Topham and you know that their were 40 quality horses in the race.

Can see you are pulling your hair out n getting frustrated  here tighty. Are you just trying to wind these guys up. It's a gift only a few have.

Yeah, I'm talking rubbish. They did frequently get under a full field in the 70s though.

If you fancy a change of career, I think you'd fly through an interview at the Daily Mail. People enjoying the event + some horses dying = people killing horses for entertainment. You can start as editor on Monday.

This is so ridiculous I couldnt help thinking its a level, or ur spoofing a Daily Mail reader.

In before me.

The Daily Mail might be a little high-brow.

Reaction from Andy Stewart, owner of one of the dead horses. Spot on imo.

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/11/04/10/RACING_National_Deaths.html&BID=465

I think I agree with his sentiment

I was really shocked and saddened (and surprised by my own reaction tbh) when I saw the white tarpaulin on teh course. I did hit me. Probs didnt help that my wife burst into tears instantly too.

However, the risks are know and it can happen. I am saddened by the deaths, but i dont think the race should stop because of it.  Just a sad event, but sad events happen in life

There is no doubt that the GN is the most dangerous race in the calendar but that is the combination of tired horses/long distance, fast ground and big fences.  Generally Aintree isn't anymore dangerous than other jumps courses and I would venture that Cheltenham is probably more dangerous in general.

Alastair Down has an excellent article in the RP today.

As he states; It all revolves around the question "Are you prepared to accept the death of horses as part of the sport?".

If your answer is "No", National Hunt racing is not for you and you should stop watching all of it.

As he points out; We kill hundreds of millions of animals every year and could show you certain modern farming methods,  or the most scrupulously run abattoir, and you'd be puking within minutes.

But because those results are hidden from view you don't think about that when you tuck into your chicken sandwich or your burger.

Obviously I have just frivolously paraphrased and blatantly copied some of his comments but I totally agree with his point.

I've had too many good dogs break a leg while hare coursing, or smash into the barbed wire while lamping to defend my argument strongly Mr Bold. It would be hypocritical of me to do so. Never the less, the "most scrupulously run abattoir" analogy doesn't work. The animals that are slaughtered in said abattoirs are not seriously injured beforehand, nor are they left to thrash around, broken and bleeding until the bloke with the humane killer arrives.

The abattoir comment mainly referred to seeing the animals in trouble on the course. The issue that most people seem to have with the National is not that they mind the horses dying. They mind seeing it on telly. It is incredibly painful to watch but I would argue that those who watch National Hunt racing all year round are likely to be much more upset by it than someone who just watches the National. Every year during the National Hunt season there are several bad falls in which horses are killed. Or horses just breakdown or are injured.

Because you watch some of these animals every week/every two weeks you really feel like you know them. It's not just some dead horse to you, it's a dead Exotic Dancer whom you've watched many a time running the race of his life and being up against the best horses. A horse that you've cheered on for many a race as he was just such a wonderful animal.

Monet's Garden having a hoof infection grabbed the Racing World's attention (or at least it seemed to) and almost every reader, no doubt, was rooting for him as he fought back from it.

TBF to Aintree there were tonnes of vets on the track (BHA stated a 150 specialist staff were on duty at Aintree focussed on making the race as safe as possible though they don't state how many of them were vets) and I am sure they were there ASAP. In fact, within 2/3 minutes of falling the areas were blocked off and vets were on their way to the fallen horses.
I think that's a pretty decent response time TBH.

I would almost argue that the current sensationalist media and the animal rights activists, like Animal Aid, who want an outright ban on racing (As that is what Animal Aid really want) don't understand horse racing and especially National Hunt and the strong feelings many of the NH supporters have towards the horses.

It's a tragedy that two good horses died in the Grand National, and it's a tragedy that several more horses died or were injured in races outside the Grand National. It was very sad to see indeed, but it's a risk that comes with this physical sport. the sport is doing all it can to limit the dangers to any horses and the horses are well taken care off. Unfortunately, sometimes they fall...and sometimes they even fall badly and are hurt, or killed.
Tragic yes, a reason to ban it..I don't think so.

Just for the record, I certainly wasn't arguing for a ban, I just wanted to instigate a debate on the moral issues.

Yeah, I guessed that TBH.

It just does my head in that this sort of debate is had every time after the National. "Should we lower the fences (even more)" "Should we make the race 4M instead of 4M4F"? and it's ussually the same people that bring it up (The Independent has been doing this since at least 2006). Doesn't matter what the ground conditions are, doesn't matter how many finishers there were or whether any horses were hurt, they always bring it up.

The problem this time is that all the tabloids, with their ussual reactionary methods, are running with it as well (Must be a slow week) and this could really hurt racing. There hasn't been a balanced side put forward in any of the articles that I have read and the fringe groups who shout the loudest (Like Animal Aid) are the ones that grab the headlines.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/horse/ALL/604/

Animal Aid website.

I don't mind hippies, and I don't mind tree-huggers. I'm all for being nice to animals....but this lot is just meh.

"Let's all turn Vegan and ban all animal sports"

Naff Off.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/horse/ALL/623//#one

When I read this, I just start hating all people with funny coloured hair.

If you lower the fences and shorten the race it isn't the Grand National anymore, it is just a regular national hunt race. Even if you diluted the national into less of a challenge the horses would still be at risk, I've seen horses die racing on the flat. Lots of sports involve risk to the participant, from motor racing to downhill skiing, and the risk is what creates the magic and excitement within that sport. A lot of people will argue the horse doesn't have a choice so it's unfair. But racing is what that horse was born and bred to do and even when the rider is unseated the horse will still carry on racing when it does have a choice. A racehorse innately wants to race. Given the choice I don't think a race horse would pull out of the national before the start in the same way Lewis Hamilton wouldn't jump out of his car before the start of a grand prix.

If you were to ban or lessen this type of racing it would impact upon the demand for national hunt horses. If you lessen the demand less will be bred. So really making national hunt less exciting kills more horses before the little fellas are even born. We deny them the chance to race at all, feel the wind in their mane, taste victory in the sport of champions. So sad. Somebody pull a screen around our morality and put it to sleep pls.

Very much this.

I remember one of my first visits to Cheltenham and a horse fell at the hurdle in front of the main stand and the screens went up. 10 mins later the screens came down to reveal the horse standing up right as rain. Got the biggest cheer of the day.

Don't think I'd bother going down to attend the Cheltenham Dressage Festival.