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Title: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: outragous76 on May 14, 2011, 12:13:57 PM 2 players are all in pre flop
Board runs out 24267 Player 1 who was called and is to show first won't show. Player 2 waits. Player 1 eventually rolls over a single jack and verbally declares jack high before flicking his 2nd card towards the muck. It lands in the cash tray face down and the dealer gives it him back. Player 1 makes a 2nd effort to muck the unseen card this time his card touches the muck. The dealer retrieves the card (no dispute it's the right card) and once again gives it back to the player. Players finally turns it over and player 2 concedes his hand. Should player 1s hand be dead at any point? Should the dealer ever retrieve a purposefully attempted mucked card? Has player 1 declared a winning hand at any point prior to his 2nd card being turned over? The house uses Roberts rules, does tda differ? Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: AndrewT on May 14, 2011, 12:18:12 PM Player 2 called yet he couldn't beat Jack-high?
Had he been watching the video of that hand featuring Roland de Wolfe in an EPT a couple of years back? Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: outragous76 on May 14, 2011, 12:19:43 PM Player 2 called yet he couldn't beat Jack-high? Had he been watching the video of that hand featuring Roland de Wolfe in an EPT a couple of years back? Was all in pre, there had been lots on tangling between the two, anyway, no derails yet Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: AndrewT on May 14, 2011, 12:26:21 PM Is this a cash game or tourney (you mention TDA rules, but cards weren't on their back pre-flop)?
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: outragous76 on May 14, 2011, 12:30:13 PM Ah sorry, cash game
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: AndrewT on May 14, 2011, 12:35:18 PM In that case I think player 1 should be allowed to muck his hand and pot passed to player 2 once player 2 turns over two cards and shows a hand.
Don't know why dealer is trying to stop him from mucking, unless player 2 specifically requests to see player 1's hand. Perhaps dealer is getting mixed up with a tourney, where you can't muck an all-in hand with action to come. Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: AndrewT on May 14, 2011, 12:36:09 PM What is player 2 doing whilst player 1 and dealer are playing pass the parcel? Is he asking to see the card or just sitting there?
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: outragous76 on May 14, 2011, 12:38:49 PM What is player 2 doing whilst player 1 and dealer are playing pass the parcel? Is he asking to see the card or just sitting there? Player 2 sat quietly waiting Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Girgy85 on May 14, 2011, 12:48:37 PM What is player 2 doing whilst player 1 and dealer are playing pass the parcel? Is he asking to see the card or just sitting there? Player 2 sat quietly angle shooting waiting to turn his 10 high over Fyp Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Rupert on May 14, 2011, 01:02:27 PM hands dead, player 2 wins if he shows his hand
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Cf on May 14, 2011, 01:34:04 PM Player 1 clearly, for whatever reason, wants to muck his hand. Let him. Player 2 wins.
As happened though his hand has been tabled (I'm one of these people who couldn't care less if his card touched the muck) so Player 1 wins. The dealer shouldn't be getting involved like this imo. And I think saying Player 2 is angle shooting is a bit out of order. He knows he's lost. He's just waiting for the other player to turn his second card over so they can move on to the next hand. Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: doubleup on May 14, 2011, 02:01:20 PM The dealer shouldn't be getting involved like this imo. The dealer is responsible for keeping the game running amd should be asking player 1 to show or muck. If I was sitting at the table I would not appreciate wasting my life while waiting for some dick to turn over some cards. Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Rupert on May 14, 2011, 02:23:44 PM Quote And I think saying Player 2 is angle shooting is a bit out of order. He knows he's lost. He's just waiting for the other player to turn his second card over so they can move on to the next hand. He paid to see his hand, he's allowed to wait Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: gatso on May 14, 2011, 02:30:04 PM Hand def mucked in a cash game, dealer needs to let him do it.player 2 has every right to wait and see what happens
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: redarmi on May 14, 2011, 02:32:05 PM Yeah think this is fairly straightforward. Player 2 gets the pot and is under no obligation to show his hand until player one shows or mucks.
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Cf on May 14, 2011, 02:42:05 PM The dealer shouldn't be getting involved like this imo. The dealer is responsible for keeping the game running amd should be asking player 1 to show or muck. If I was sitting at the table I would not appreciate wasting my life while waiting for some dick to turn over some cards. But the player has made it pretty clear he doesn't want to show and wants to muck his second card. The dealer should therefore muck it rather than hand it back. Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: AndrewT on May 14, 2011, 03:06:24 PM If player 1's hand is mucked what happens if player 2 then just mucks his hand as well - neither player tabling a hand?
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: doubleup on May 14, 2011, 03:07:42 PM If player 1's hand is mucked what happens if player 2 then just mucks his hand as well - neither player tabling a hand? dealer just keeps the pot, f** them both. Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: JK on May 14, 2011, 03:11:10 PM Player 2 has a right to say Player 1s card. If hes so determined to muck a card, then his hand is dead. However, should Player 2 wants to see the other card, he has a right to, so AFTER Iv called the hand dead (any hand that so much as touches the muck will be deemed dead), Im gonna turn over the other card and muck the hand completely. Then Player 2 should table his hand and claim the pot, even if he has the nut low.
Yes, Player 2 may be angling slightly (as did the guy in the Roland DeWolfe hand), but he has a right to see the guys hand. Just turn it over ffs... Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: outragous76 on May 14, 2011, 03:23:14 PM ok - all fairly conclusive
I was obv player 2 - and was pretty angry at the dealer after the event During the hand I just sat quietly and mucked when the J3 eventually got turned over I dont see why dealers have a problem with putting a hand in the muck. The guy has quite clearly made 2 attempts to muck his hand so why on earth would you give it him back? As for angling shooting - there was obv nothing of the kind - i would have called for a ruling during the hand if that was what I intended, but I have no problem winning a pot if my opponent concedes a better hand due to "embarrasment". To be quite frank Im glad I didnt ask for a ruling as the card room manager (who I get on very well with) wouldnt have ruled the hand dead! We had something of a heated debate thereafter! Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: Girgy85 on May 14, 2011, 03:28:53 PM If player 1's hand is mucked what happens if player 2 then just mucks his hand as well - neither player tabling a hand? dealer just keeps the pot, f** them both. This lol Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: DungBeetle on May 16, 2011, 02:41:49 PM Player 2 has done nothing wrong. He has called. Player 1 now can either show his hand and try to claim the pot, or muck his hand and concede pot to Player 2. Player 1 is being a dick, and I have no idea what the dealer is doing.
Title: Re: Ruling 2 bit less of a yawn Post by: StuartHopkin on May 16, 2011, 02:55:28 PM Yeah dealer error imo
I'm with Cf, I dont care that card have hit the muck. The hand is live if the dealer gives it him back, as it is obv the dealers bizzare understanding that it was not intentional. |