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Title: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: cambridgealex on May 29, 2011, 12:53:09 AM How profitable is this? I seem to have gotten into the habit of donking alot because of playing loads of heads up so I was wondering about the merits of doing this multiway. Say it's raised in middle postion, 2 or 3 callers we call from the blinds and we see a flop 4/5ways.
Scenarios where I might do this 1) 2c 2d on Ts 9s 2h 2) Kd Jd on 9d 7d 3c 3) 5c 6c on 4c 3c Ks 4) 8s 9s on 7d Th Jh 5) 8s 8h on 7s 5c 2c Basically in spots where I really don't want it to be checked round and either a) miss a street of value b) have our hand lose equity by seeing another card (with a big draw) or c) give free cards to 3/4 peoples overcards (eg with 88 on the 7high flop). Would appreciate thoughts on this ta. Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: outragous76 on May 29, 2011, 01:20:22 AM 1. Donk
2. C/r 3. C/r 4. Donk 5. Very pre flop dependant on how strong you think he is Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: Rupert on May 29, 2011, 01:41:08 AM They're all player dependent. When you have strong hands you want to be donking on boards that villains don't cbet a lot especially multiway without a strong hand so hand 1 is the perfect example of that. The 752 is a pretty bad board to donk 88 on IMO as you're going to win less vs a 7 as you look strong and it prevents the PFR from cbetting which they sometimes do with hands like AcJ or something. While there is merit in protecting vs overcards people are going to be very straightforward on say a Q turn so you can safely c/f and you're more likely to win small bets vs pairs when you check. When there is a fish in the pot I would donk all of these hands for value since the fish are always going to call with worse. I think hand 3 is a pretty clear c/r when there's so many Kx hands in their range that will just call when you donk and you are very comfortable getting it in/don't mind them folding a king anyway. Other than cards you hit there aren't a lot of good cards for you to barrel where as in hand 2 you can barrel any T+ and have turned equity so you win more than if you just c/r/get it in on the flop if you unload the clip. I probably don't have much of a donking range on that board (k43) vs regs.
Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: cambridgealex on May 29, 2011, 08:06:33 PM Cheers Rupert.
Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: SuuPRlim on May 30, 2011, 05:04:29 PM Three things i would consider are
a) The strength of ur range vs the strength of theirs, i.e if you have a strong hand in the spot and a strong range for this spot in general, but there range is weak we wanna be donking here for straight up value - we are gonna be donking light in these spots because often we'll be firing a few barrells so its balanced in that sense b) Villain tendancies, is this a spot where he would cbet a lot, does he have a much wider range that c-bet folds as opposed to calls donks - if he is c-bet folding a high% but calling donks a small% the best vaccum play is always gonna be a c/r c) how we best realise our equity in the hand - the 5c 6c hand for e.g. the best way to realise our equity here is get as much money in on the flop as possible, so a c/r is obv the best option, maximising fold equity and getting as much of our stack in as possible whilst our equity is high - we're likely to lose equity on the turn. Other spots like K9 on 459cc for example donking would prolly be a better play in a lot of spots as hiim calling clubs and fold the turn would be one of the best outcomes.... Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: giveyourcash on June 15, 2011, 09:23:05 AM Man I really want to respond to this but I'm worried about giving away a reasonably large edge against a fair number of DTD regs. I'[ll just say that it seems to me the guys that play live a lot have created iterative strategies and it's possible that is costing them money. What's worse is it's money they don't realise they are losing because the benefits of an iterative strategy against a broad player base are obvious while the downsides in specific instances are not.
Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: Rupert on June 15, 2011, 09:26:37 AM parlez vous anglais
quit talking in code and tell us how to do it! Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: Free_Rollin on June 15, 2011, 10:27:39 AM They're all player dependent. When you have strong hands you want to be donking on boards that villains don't cbet a lot especially multiway without a strong hand so hand 1 is the perfect example of that. The 752 is a pretty bad board to donk 88 on IMO as you're going to win less vs a 7 as you look strong and it prevents the PFR from cbetting which they sometimes do with hands like AcJ or something. While there is merit in protecting vs overcards people are going to be very straightforward on say a Q turn so you can safely c/f and you're more likely to win small bets vs pairs when you check. When there is a fish in the pot I would donk all of these hands for value since the fish are always going to call with worse. I think hand 3 is a pretty clear c/r when there's so many Kx hands in their range that will just call when you donk and you are very comfortable getting it in/don't mind them folding a king anyway. Other than cards you hit there aren't a lot of good cards for you to barrel where as in hand 2 you can barrel any T+ and have turned equity so you win more than if you just c/r/get it in on the flop if you unload the clip. I probably don't have much of a donking range on that board (k43) vs regs. Best thought itt. Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: smashedagain on June 15, 2011, 10:34:02 AM They're all player dependent. When you have strong hands you want to be donking on boards that villains don't cbet a lot especially multiway without a strong hand so hand 1 is the perfect example of that. The 752 is a pretty bad board to donk 88 on IMO as you're going to win less vs a 7 as you look strong and it prevents the PFR from cbetting which they sometimes do with hands like AcJ or something. While there is merit in protecting vs overcards people are going to be very straightforward on say a Q turn so you can safely c/f and you're more likely to win small bets vs pairs when you check. When there is a fish in the pot I would donk all of these hands for value since the fish are always going to call with worse. I think hand 3 is a pretty clear c/r when there's so many Kx hands in their range that will just call when you donk and you are very comfortable getting it in/don't mind them folding a king anyway. Other than cards you hit there aren't a lot of good cards for you to barrel where as in hand 2 you can barrel any T+ and have turned equity so you win more than if you just c/r/get it in on the flop if you unload the clip. I probably don't have much of a donking range on that board (k43) vs regs. Best thought itt. Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: Free_Rollin on June 15, 2011, 10:38:12 AM They're all player dependent. When you have strong hands you want to be donking on boards that villains don't cbet a lot especially multiway without a strong hand so hand 1 is the perfect example of that. The 752 is a pretty bad board to donk 88 on IMO as you're going to win less vs a 7 as you look strong and it prevents the PFR from cbetting which they sometimes do with hands like AcJ or something. While there is merit in protecting vs overcards people are going to be very straightforward on say a Q turn so you can safely c/f and you're more likely to win small bets vs pairs when you check. When there is a fish in the pot I would donk all of these hands for value since the fish are always going to call with worse. I think hand 3 is a pretty clear c/r when there's so many Kx hands in their range that will just call when you donk and you are very comfortable getting it in/don't mind them folding a king anyway. Other than cards you hit there aren't a lot of good cards for you to barrel where as in hand 2 you can barrel any T+ and have turned equity so you win more than if you just c/r/get it in on the flop if you unload the clip. I probably don't have much of a donking range on that board (k43) vs regs. Best thought itt. Definitely booking a session with you next time I'm at DTD mate. Hope you have some free time! Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: smashedagain on June 15, 2011, 10:42:07 AM They're all player dependent. When you have strong hands you want to be donking on boards that villains don't cbet a lot especially multiway without a strong hand so hand 1 is the perfect example of that. The 752 is a pretty bad board to donk 88 on IMO as you're going to win less vs a 7 as you look strong and it prevents the PFR from cbetting which they sometimes do with hands like AcJ or something. While there is merit in protecting vs overcards people are going to be very straightforward on say a Q turn so you can safely c/f and you're more likely to win small bets vs pairs when you check. When there is a fish in the pot I would donk all of these hands for value since the fish are always going to call with worse. I think hand 3 is a pretty clear c/r when there's so many Kx hands in their range that will just call when you donk and you are very comfortable getting it in/don't mind them folding a king anyway. Other than cards you hit there aren't a lot of good cards for you to barrel where as in hand 2 you can barrel any T+ and have turned equity so you win more than if you just c/r/get it in on the flop if you unload the clip. I probably don't have much of a donking range on that board (k43) vs regs. Best thought itt. Definitely booking a session with you next time I'm at DTD mate. Hope you have some free time! Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: Skippy on June 15, 2011, 12:04:38 PM My thought is that as the number of players increases, the less the check-to-raiser dynamic exists any more. So these aren't really "donk" bets in the normal sense.
E.g. take this Gala-tastic fictional HH. UTG+2 limps, Skippy raises to 4x from MP with Ah Qd. Called from CO, Button, you sitting in the BB and the limper, so there are 5 of us. If you check it to me I'm not c-betting any more on any of the flops 1-5 you've shown me. Compare with online: Several folds, Skippy raises to 3x from MP with Ah Qd, and you call me in the SB, all others fold. I'm c-betting about 80% of the time on all the boards you've shown me. So if you've got 5c6c on 3c4cKs, you'd be mad to lead out to me- c/r for value. Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: cambridgealex on June 15, 2011, 01:12:25 PM Man I really want to respond to this but I'm worried about giving away a reasonably large edge against a fair number of DTD regs. I'[ll just say that it seems to me the guys that play live a lot have created iterative strategies and it's possible that is costing them money. What's worse is it's money they don't realise they are losing because the benefits of an iterative strategy against a broad player base are obvious while the downsides in specific instances are not. yes, please elaborate. we all talk to each other about strat etc its such a great way of improving imo. you don't play that often vs us anyway and you game select well etc to avoid the decent players so it wouldn't matter too much. Honest! Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: giveyourcash on June 17, 2011, 07:13:01 PM Man I really want to respond to this but I'm worried about giving away a reasonably large edge against a fair number of DTD regs. I'[ll just say that it seems to me the guys that play live a lot have created iterative strategies and it's possible that is costing them money. What's worse is it's money they don't realise they are losing because the benefits of an iterative strategy against a broad player base are obvious while the downsides in specific instances are not. yes, please elaborate. we all talk to each other about strat etc its such a great way of improving imo. you don't play that often vs us anyway and you game select well etc to avoid the decent players so it wouldn't matter too much. Honest! £50 an hour ;) Title: Re: Theory - donkbetting in multiway pots Post by: skolsuper on June 17, 2011, 07:15:21 PM Man I really want to respond to this but I'm worried about giving away a reasonably large edge against a fair number of DTD regs. I'[ll just say that it seems to me the guys that play live a lot have created iterative strategies and it's possible that is costing them money. What's worse is it's money they don't realise they are losing because the benefits of an iterative strategy against a broad player base are obvious while the downsides in specific instances are not. yes, please elaborate. we all talk to each other about strat etc its such a great way of improving imo. you don't play that often vs us anyway and you game select well etc to avoid the decent players so it wouldn't matter too much. Honest! £50 an hour ;) Win |