blonde poker forum

Wsop Sat - 13k package

$500 buy in

50 runners, 50 remain, 2 Packages

blinds 10-20

Hero stack 5000

Opponent stack 5000

Average is 5000

3rd hand in no information



Oppo UTG riase to 60

Cut off & button flat

Hero in sb with  Ac Kc calls

bb folds

flop

Qh Ahrt 9s

Hero bets 195


UTG flats both others fold

Turn  4d

Hero bets 325
UTG calls

river  Kd

Hero checks (thinking of calling any reasonable bet)

UTG all in 4420


thoughts please

Not necessarily.

You still need to do a fold though.

+1

wow you've played a few of these aint ya? do a fold coz if he is that bad you will catch him later all being well

Hate the donk bet on the flop. What were your intentions on the flop if he was to raise? 3b the flop and get it in? 3b fold?

I fold the river and feel quite happy about it. With no reads if your opponent is playing fairly LAG J10 has got there too. We obviously only beat a bluff and it'd be hard for him to be bluffing in this spot as he reps a super thin range.

+1

Yeah it's awful.

Probably saved you going bust though.

Folding is fine, you need to be right a way high percentage of the time and i don't see it.

Betting the flop is good imo. What makes you think it's so terrible?

3-bet pre? Surely this isn't a spot to be flatting, seeing a 4+ way flop and be looking to get a massive % of stacks in on an A-high flop. 3-bet pre, lead flop, turn and bet/call river and then sigh when he's made with TJ.

I would be inclined to 3bet pre-flop rather than just flat call, in order to narrow the field and the initial raiser's range...as played I would fold the river.

If UTG raise, we?

If UTG raises and we flat and he barrels turn and river are we just c/c?

If UTG raises do we 3b the flop? If he 4bs do we fold?

Donking the flop OOP inflates the pot and makes it so much harder to play our hand.

Who said anything about looking to get massive % of stacks in?

Flat pre.

Pot control on flop / turn as we're oop and don't want a huge pot.

Possibly value bet river as our hand is well disguised and we can look like we were chasing something and are having a stab at it.

Obviously re-assess each street depending on action.

The cutoff and the button could be playing very wide range here, so I don't understand why would you let the button see the flop cheaply and also possibly give great pot odds to the BB (although not in this case)  to join the party with any reasonable 2 cards when you have AK in you hand? Why wouldn't you want to protect it and by 3btetting to find out a bit more info about your opponent's holdings?

^^ That's not a very good analysis on why we shouldn't bet the flop

This doesn't look like a board that the OR is going to be cbetting very often. OP is betting his hand for value (as the point of poker is to win money not to pot control), our hand is likely best and there are worse possible hands which'll call so i don't get your thought process. Taking the initiative >>>>> c/calling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results orientated replies

You don't think this board hits an UTG's c betting range? Seriously?

If we're betting the flop and turn thinking we're ahead, how can we fold the river?

If you're checking surely you're check/folding the flop to UTG right?

head asplode

I can't see how you think leading out is a good idea. I really can't.

What hands are we hoping to get value from?

You have to be check/folding to OR. But there's additionally 2 other people in the pot who can call with worse A's/draws/KQ who knows...but this is definitely a spot where you can donk for value + protection and it's far superior to checking imo

Personally i think OP played this hand fine. 

Much prefer a 3bet pre in this case. Not sure about donking, but muckthenuts is usually right.

3 bettings cool, we can even 3 bet fold vs UTG!  Donking is best IMO, don't really see why draws would raise us on this flop if we donk and don't see people bluff raising much at all here.  A lot of weak aces will check behind and we will win a bit more on average if we donk from them and sometimes the draws check behind too so we do get decent bit more of value by donking I think.  Turn is fairly close, we are kinda overrepping our hand a bit but there are still lots of draws.  I'd def bet the river though and as played it's a really easy fold, I think he has JT lots and it would need to be a really rare hero bluff for us to be able to call.

Well firstly there are plenty of hands we get value from, probably moreso than if we c/c.  Secondly we face a lot less tough decisions - if we c/c once then the turn and river are going to be very hard to play if he bets 1 or more of them which is very likely to happen on this texture if they bet the flop.

Thanks for the replies lads, I have a set strat for playing these one of them is to play AK passively in the earlier stages, & obv I folded. Finished 7th though which is no good.

If we're donking flop and turn and the river improves our hand and only lets KK and J10 get there, why do we fold the river? Because he's called and turn so must have a hand? In which case if we donk the flop and he leads why aren't we checking the turn?

Because if we bet the river his options aren't just fold or raise and very rarely do the hands we beat raise they either call or fold.  If we just shell up and go into c/c mode our range is pretty much capped at what we have so villain can go wide for value and wide as a bluff and there's not a lot we can do about it.  Even with nigh on the top of our range we are going to be facing very tough decisions.

flatting pre >>> 3betting IMO

i mean I think its a completely fine spot to 3bet but 250bb's deep we're gonna get peeled a bunch wider than we should and we're going to be c/f a lot more flops than is cool.

I dont HATE the flop donk, my only reservation with it is that it seems impossible for you to have weak hands in such a spot and you're repping a range almost 100% for value and AK is kinda towards the bottom of that range.
The problem with chk/call is that most hands we beat can pot control on the turn, and once we call its unusual to find people barreling off or trying to value town any Ace worse than AT.
c/f is far and away the nut-low line on the flop, would be lunacy to even consider, given how people LOVE to c-bet A high boards with preflop initiative.

as played I would b/f the river so much stuff chks back i really don't like the river chk and see pretty much no merit to it at all given his range consists primarily of hands that are ahead of us or bluff catching.

the all in on the river is bizzarre, not sure wtf is going on lol but yh i think we should prolly be chk folding to even a normal betsize.

You're generally wrong here. Most people won't cbet as a bluff four way on AhQh9d very often, let alone love doing it.  

To me if we check and UTG bets it's a simple fold and overall a simple hand. KK/JJ won't be cbetting and AQ has now sucked out on us. So we beat nothing in your standard UTG opening range given the lack of a read telling us otherwise and easily fold AK.

There's a decent amount of draws tied in with him occasionally bluffing making c/c fine.  I think our donk range is more deceptive than our c/c range and we quite often have hearts or JT or something so we win more bets from Ax that would likely have checked behind.

I think ur giving people's UTG range 250bb's deep way more credit, and the reason you're doing this is why people cbet Ahigh boards without hands way more frequently than you think.

But you're point is valid and we could take a cyclicar route where discuss where the line lies between folding cos they always have it and calling so we dont get bluffed all night.