blonde poker forum

Keep meaning to post this.

Deepstack this month. Guy ep opens. Mid position peel. Button calls.I peel 23hh Sb (in before gold pre). Bb folds.4 handed and flop is 954 one heart. I lead half pot. Ep raiser calls. Mid pos calls. Button folds.

Turn is jh. I check. Ep checks. Mp bets. I call. Ep folds. Board bricks. I am playing the board and give up. My opponent checks.

I say twice "I'm playing the board" villian shrugs and mucks. I say "are u mucking?" He nods. Without thinking I ask dealer to pull his cards in before tabling my hand. Table is Obv shocked and bemused.

Question: in this spot, knowing I can only split at best should I let villian muck?

You table your hand if you want to claim the pot. Simple really and he's forfeiting that option. You did ask him if he's mucking, and you told him you're playing board so he knows if he tables he's chopping the pot with you.

Its bad IMO and I wouldn't do it but its not half as bad as Kinboshi shouting nuts to get others to muck then tabling air.

i split the pot with him regardless. karma

No idea what the rule is at DTD but if it's the last aggressor shows and he mucks his hand so be it. I'd wouldn't ask the dealer to muck his hand tho, that's not your job.

Ha, that was brilliant. Tabled nine-high on a paired board with possible straights and flushes when I was down to 2xBBs and said "the nuts" as I stood up and put my jacket on. Two players mucked a-high and a laughing Barry Neville's brother tabled the same hand as me and we chopped the miniscule pot.

A few seconds later a few of the players were saying I was cheating by saying I had the nuts, missing the fact that I'd tabled my hand first and was putting my jacket on as I said it.

Micky Wernick was sat to my left and he told them to basically get a grip as it was obvious it was a joke and as I'd tabled my hand they could clearly see what I had.

You shouldnt have to ask the dealer... but I can imagine you probably did have to. What you did here is 100% fine, especially if you've said "I'm playing the board" twice.

yes asking the dealer to muck his hand is a bit douchy and desperate looking. i would have given you both a round penalty for chip passing/collusion

Surely when he mucks tho dealer should pull the cards into the muck?

yes of course they should muck em. just being facetious to help leefish out, but cant triple barrel it coz you are too nice. do think you should have pointed out the players error. its only a small pot to give up

If you say you're playing the board and he still mucks his hand he deserves to lose the pot

I hope you got the lot

The most ethical thing to do in this spot is fire the river. As played muck your hand as well and stare at the felt in silence.

Seems fine to me. If he wants to fold his hand I don't see any reason why you should stop him.

+1

Maybe because he has some morals?

Fuck him. It's his own fault

And I'm usually pretty fair about this sort of stuff

nothing wrong.

did you check the river for showdown value?

two reasons for not betting river:

Guy was a station

I had my usual nitty image in play and had tried value betting queen high against him earlier

Dealer and player need a slap. you have done nothing wrong.

lol. you essex boys

If the dude is a nice guy it's ghey. If you wanted to take the pot down you could have risked some chips to do it. Trying to win it after by asking the dealer to gather the cards is plain angle shooting isn't it? I mean some cocky feckers have got that sort of thing coming so I would be ok with it. But generally I don't think it's a good way to conduct yourself in a tournament against regular people. If you think you're a favourite to win the table the antics aren't necessary and only serve to spoil the mood. A mega hard ass attitude over a small pot in the early levels seems overly anxious to me.

i agree with this but in a more friendly tone.

Me too.

It's not really very far removed from what that German guy did to Roland in the EPT.

A tabled hand always speaks, a mucked hand is dead.


The dealer should be enforcing the showdown rules, and the player shouldn't be so retarded as to muck a hand stronger than the board when their opponent is announcing they play the board.

People have different morals and ethics and opinions, that is why there are rules governing all parts of poker, follow the rules of the house not your beliefs.

you are right andy but do you not feel that in this situation there is more to be gained from letting the player have or split the pot than saying muck them cards dealer and send that pot my way.

Yeah Roland grabbing at cards all wide-eyed and awkward it looked so desperado. No need to be so serious and anxious about the literal interpretation of rules when playing a game. Sorry about my tone.

I couldn't care less. follow the rules


if we go to showdown and you misread your hand and don't table it but then afterwards realise that you had the same hand as I tabled, what happens?


you feel like a twat is the answer, you can't be awarded chips retrospectively or anything else, if you wanna talk about karma and rubbish like that then you can settle up from your pocket when playing cash otherwise learn to read your hand/always just turn it over so your cards speak.


using any reasoning like morals or karma in a situation where people are wagering money and with tonnes of specific rules is totally pointless.



If a player goes to muck and pushes their cards face down towards the muck the dealer should muck them

if it was on bedi or anyone else to show first the dealer should have been enforcing it.





It's also nothing like the Roland hand as the guy didn't say anything and it was on Roland to show.

Just to be clear, this wasn't a planned angle like the German claimed against de Wolfe. I was shocked that he was mucking when I told him I was playing the board. It was only afterward I felt that morally it could be wrong

the roland hand is pretty comical. put it up on here if you can. meh andy, you make it sound too black and white but none the less think you are right. being to soft is my weakness.

you think its wrong because you are a good guy george. no one suggests you angled or attempted to. its an ethical issue not a clear cut rule.

If you told him your playing the board and he heard you then can't see how you did much wrong, surely he didn't hear you though ?

I'm not suggesting that it was a planned angle for one second George, I know you better than that.

Just saying that it's not that far removed from an out and out angle-shot after you ask the dealer to muck his cards.

The Germans actions were not wrong. RDW did not table a hand and DID muck his own hand, therefore I'm not sure on which planet he ever believed he would be entitled to the pot

when I get dealt 2 cards in succession from the deck and tell the dealer that it's a misdeal am I 'angling' for a better hand or trying to follow the rules.


if a player mucks his hand it's the dealers job to put it in the muck


it sounds like here the dealer wasn't in control of the table enough/people don't know the showdown rules well enough.


pretty simple.


this is why there are pages and pages of rules.

The German guy did not break any rules v RdW yet everyone knows that he was angle-shooting.

I don't see how he was.

If it's your turn to act on showdown you have 2 options. Table your cards or muck. Verbally announce it if you want but your two options still remain table the hand or muck. RdW decided to muck so the German gets the pot as he was the only player to table a hand. Simple.

Surely there isn't much to talk about here. You have said you play the board and villain wants to muck, just terrible poker and deserves to lose the pot, no ethics involved. If I hadn't said "I play the board", I wouldn't encourage the muck, but that is just tez

Obviously the term "angle-shooting" is subjective and some people would have an argument in an empty house.

In my book deliberately calling a river bet with no hand because you feel that oppo is bluffing and he has a tendency to muck when picked off is angle-shooting, especially when the guy explains afterwards that was his sole intention when calling.

Playing by the rules does not preclude a player from angle-shooting when the rules are part of the angle.

Makes it a damn clever call in my book.

RdW is the one angle shooting, trying to get the other player to reveal his hand when he was under no obligation to do so.

Clever yes but sharp practice nonetheless.

Suggesting that RdW was angle-shooting is just plain stupid.

RdW was trying to get the other player to reveal the strength of his hand. He has no right to do that until he has performed his own action at showdown as it was his turn. AFTER he has either tabled/mucked his hand he can request to see. But at that point in time he had no right to that information so just needed to get on with his own action.

We had a big long thread about the RdW hand and I seem to remember people posted plenty of fail on that thread as well.

Roland bet the river and got called. It was on him to show his cards and he mucked instead. He deservedly lost.

He wasn't angle-shooting though.

+1

omg

Well, I guess he wasn't angle shooting as such. But if either player was doing so in this scenario it was RdW. The other guy did nothing wrong.

he should be shot imo

This is never angle shooting, merely exploiting the other players mistake which is surely only the way to win in poker.

Personally I love the german guy's line in that hand. He exploited an angle he was sharp enough to pick up on. People are being far too precious about morales here. This is poker! it's hardly fucking golf with the boss.

George. The only thing you did wrong was say you played the board twice. Once was enough.

Everything CF said.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC56txeJd5M

This is the TDA summit, they discussed this very hand and it is very interesting to see a room of 150 TD's discussing this hand.
go to 1:50 to miss all the other shit as the whole thing is 4 hours long.

FWIW I dont think Tobias did anything wrong and RdW was shooting an angle.

Ty for the link Rich, loving it.


Did anything get clarified about the WSOPs rule next year with regards to cheering and following people and the player you are there to support getting punished rather than the railers?

The revised rules will be on the TDA site within 3 days, not sure if the railing etiquette will be written down?

ah ok kewl. am watching this whole discussion back now about the De Wolfe hand, really surprised about the amount of people on RDW side considering how clearly his cards hit the muck and therefore are dead.

RDW douschyness, dealer error imo.

Rulings always fascinate me. Keep hearing in Dtd you have to show to claim a pot on the river but in ukipts if your opponent mucks then you can too. What would you do with the pot if I threw my cards into the muck after my opponent without showing em Richard. Obv you know I would never do this but would like to know.

Saw vicky corehn get a bit heated over a ruling at a ukipt in G Manchester because of the local G rule was totally opposite of stars rule. The main rule is the tourney directors decision is final. I saw someone get irate the other week and heard simon say to the td if he does not agree then ban him from the club. A bit harsh I thought

Nice thread killer Rich lol

George surely you feel this is wrong otherwise you wouldn't posted, there will always be a few 'tough guys' on the thread saying fuckim he deserves it he's a knob etc but you are not like that.

Afterwards did it play on your mind? affect your play? did you feel Karma shafting you?

Agree with this. Whenever people behave in this ultra hard ass serious way to avoid showing any chink of weakness at a poker table I think it's funny to see. Just relax and be normal kids. This rules is rules line doesn't work imo. In football you throw the ball back to your oppos if they put it out. I don't think it's weak to do that. It's just normal fair behaviour for people playing a game. Throwing back to your man instead cos the rules say you can would be pretty mean imo. So why do people freeze up at the poker table and try and act so hard face? The RDW hand is embarrassing because two grown men are snatching and grabbing at cards like a couple of infants. I don't see what harm it does to give the clueless individual half the pot in the scheme of things.

if it was a £500 pot on cash you wouldn't feel so bad you'd be giggling all the way too the cash desk. its his own fault for being a idiot. you told him twice playing the board so its his own fault for being a moron! i hope it wasn't me  ;carlocitrone;

tough guy itt

Didn't bat an eyelid at the time.

It was only when I thought about it afterward that I thought it might have been out of line.

No one said anything at the table either- they just found it funny. Think villian in the hand was more embarrassed than anything else.

As a side point, I'm not one of these people who demand to see people's cards at showdown. If I believe I have the winner whether betting or calling I will table my hand