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Title: Button Tens Post by: WPIL on August 03, 2011, 01:27:14 AM Couple of players gave me a bit of gib about raising Tens here, surely not wrong? Wanted Blinds out of the way so I was one on one with the table short stack - surely not a call and then fold to a shove?
PokerStars Game #65449352355: Tournament #432010642, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (5000/10000) - 2011/08/02 20:20:57 ET Table '432010642 60' 9-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: APPW (311030 in chips) Seat 2: psfsin (331202 in chips) Seat 3: Giffordonian (393170 in chips) Seat 4: Romelushul (59980 in chips) Seat 5: eucarionte (123492 in chips) Seat 6: Mrsgardener (345946 in chips) Seat 7: FastEdiddy (417922 in chips) Seat 8: dangorgan (317537 in chips) Seat 9: woxix (297754 in chips) APPW: posts the ante 1000 psfsin: posts the ante 1000 Giffordonian: posts the ante 1000 Romelushul: posts the ante 1000 eucarionte: posts the ante 1000 Mrsgardener: posts the ante 1000 FastEdiddy: posts the ante 1000 dangorgan: posts the ante 1000 woxix: posts the ante 1000 psfsin: posts small blind 5000 Giffordonian: posts big blind 10000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to APPW [Th Ts] Romelushul: folds dangorgan said, "nh" eucarionte: raises 112492 to 122492 and is all-in Mrsgardener: folds FastEdiddy: folds dangorgan: folds woxix: folds APPW: raises 112492 to 234984 psfsin: raises 95218 to 330202 and is all-in Giffordonian: folds APPW: calls 75046 and is all-in Uncalled bet (20172) returned to psfsin *** FLOP *** [4h 3d 9s] *** TURN *** [4h 3d 9s] [7s] *** RIVER *** [4h 3d 9s 7s] [5c] *** SHOW DOWN *** psfsin: shows [Qs Qd] (a pair of Queens) APPW: shows [Th Ts] (a pair of Tens) psfsin collected 375076 from side pot eucarionte: shows [Ac 8c] (high card Ace) psfsin collected 386476 from main pot APPW finished the tournament in 56th place and received $143.00. eucarionte finished the tournament in 57th place and received $143.00. *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 761552 Main pot 386476. Side pot 375076. | Rake 0 Board [4h 3d 9s 7s 5c] Seat 1: APPW (button) showed [Th Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens Seat 2: psfsin (small blind) showed [Qs Qd] and won (761552) with a pair of Queens Seat 3: Giffordonian (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: Romelushul folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: eucarionte showed [Ac 8c] and lost with high card Ace Seat 6: Mrsgardener folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: FastEdiddy folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: dangorgan folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: woxix folded before Flop (didn't bet) Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: GreekStein on August 03, 2011, 01:29:32 AM Shove is best play imo. ul
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: ChipRich on August 03, 2011, 01:31:31 AM Would never ever ever be flatting and folding to shove.
Reshove all day ul. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Horneris on August 03, 2011, 01:52:37 AM 50p
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: muckthenuts on August 03, 2011, 03:30:06 AM Yep, fine.
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Nit Tendencies on August 03, 2011, 10:38:06 PM I actually think call/call is better.
I think that in the villain's situation people sometimes completely lose their brains, and if we're going to get it in anyway then we might as well try and expand his range to contain as many hands as possible, in order to improve our overall equity (even if by a small amount). The villain is still going to have the parts of his range that we lose to whether you call or shove, and even if he doesn't add many (or any) hands to his range here then it still has to be better to give him the room to spazz. Also, the initial shove is big enough relative to stacks to dissuade peeling cold, so we don't have to worry about the vulnerability of our hand post with a shallow pot/stack. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: redarmi on August 03, 2011, 11:00:37 PM shove ainec
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: SuuPRlim on August 04, 2011, 10:59:28 AM I actually think call/call is better. I think that in the villain's situation people sometimes completely lose their brains, and if we're going to get it in anyway then we might as well try and expand his range to contain as many hands as possible, in order to improve our overall equity (even if by a small amount). The villain is still going to have the parts of his range that we lose to whether you call or shove, and even if he doesn't add many (or any) hands to his range here then it still has to be better to give him the room to spazz. have you got the action right? it's gone open jam for 11~bigs UTG+1 and it's folded to us on the BTN, so our only villain is currently all in. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: pleno1 on August 04, 2011, 11:01:20 AM yeh but NI is trying to say if we call we may soemtimes widen villains range to 55-99 which 100% folds when we jam. Even if they jam these hands less than 5% of the time its going to slightly increase our EV. We obviously arent folding, but can sometimes get it in realllllllllly good 3 handed.
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: SuuPRlim on August 04, 2011, 11:11:53 AM yeh but NI is trying to say if we call we may soemtimes widen villains range to 55-99 which 100% folds when we jam. which villain? the only active player in the pot so far is ALL IN? unless we're talking about the two guys in the blinds. which would make sense lol Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Nit Tendencies on August 04, 2011, 01:03:41 PM Sorry for the confusion, by villains I mean the two people left to act in the blinds. Apologies.
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: SuuPRlim on August 04, 2011, 01:53:40 PM Sorry for the confusion, by villains I mean the two people left to act in the blinds. Apologies. i am perfectly prepared to forgive you. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: pleno1 on August 04, 2011, 02:59:09 PM yeh but NI is trying to say if we call we may soemtimes widen villains range to 55-99 which 100% folds when we jam. which villain? the only active player in the pot so far is ALL IN? unless we're talking about the two guys in the blinds. which would make sense lol yes ofc, "potential" villains. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: GreekStein on August 04, 2011, 03:36:07 PM Why do we think flatting doesn't look stronger than shoving?
I'm really on the fence here Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: pleno1 on August 04, 2011, 03:41:45 PM flatting lots of the time looks like moormans avartar and a10 combined.
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Nit Tendencies on August 04, 2011, 04:14:10 PM Why do we think flatting doesn't look stronger than shoving? I'm really on the fence here Because it's a $10 freeze... There is no way they are going to tighten their range if you flat as opposed to a shove. It's safe to assume that they are on a level where they still think that we would be shoving JJ-AA for "protection" and just assume that we have a weaker range. This is obviously a huge assumption, but it doesn't really matter because it's an assumption that has no negative effects. Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: muckthenuts on August 04, 2011, 04:40:45 PM Why do we think flatting doesn't look stronger than shoving? I'm really on the fence here Because it's a $10 freeze... There is no way they are going to tighten their range if you flat as opposed to a shove. It's safe to assume that they are on a level where they still think that we would be shoving JJ-AA for "protection" and just assume that we have a weaker range. This is obviously a huge assumption, but it doesn't really matter because it's an assumption that has no negative effects. Generally disagree Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Nit Tendencies on August 04, 2011, 06:24:34 PM Elaborate muckthenuts, I may not have clearly expressed what I mean since I'm grinding at the same time as posting.
Title: Re: Button Tens Post by: Longy on August 04, 2011, 06:44:38 PM Against opponents who are not aware you are semi comptent, or aren't thinking opponents flatting looks weaker imo. Ofc in general the opposite is true if we are good, obviously gonna flat qq+ to get action here and the same theory applies with tens.
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