blonde poker forum

OK this obv lead to a bustout and although I'm not revealing what villian has I think it's fairly obv but please try not let this bias the outcome. Also I have managed to get 120 bigs in with Top Pair which is pretty bad under normal circumstances.

My stack 26k

Villian 28k.

History- my image is as usual playing a lot of pots. Table is playing fairly tight. A few soft spots (just kidding Dewi).

Villian- seems pretty awful. He got his chips by cold calling a 3 bet from button in sb with A10. He's then c/raised T83 flop and called it off when button shove Kings and rivered a 10.

Blinds 100/200.

I open 450 UTG+1 at 100/200 with AhKs. Folds to villian in BB he 3 bets to 1200. I call.

Flop is Kh8h3s. Villian bets 3.5k! I flat.

Turn is 6c. Villian now jams.

He can only have one hand right?!?!

Pretty trivial fold against a bad player

Villian now jams

My esteemed backer has told me he doubts he folds.

On reflection I probably disagree but seeing has he has more EPT's than anyone on this thread I'm going to take solace in his words.

Probs waiting for a monte Carlo champ to comment before deciding? Thought so.

I don't know.

pmsl at folding

Yes.

I don't know what it is though.

OK this obv lead to a bustout and although I'm not revealing what villian has I think it's fairly obv but please try not let this bias the outcome. Also I have managed to get 120 bigs in with Top Pair which is pretty bad under normal circumstances.

My stack 26k

Villian 28k.

History- my image is as usual playing a lot of pots. Table is playing fairly tight. A few soft spots (just kidding Dewi).

Villian- seems pretty awful. He got his chips by cold calling a 3 bet from button in sb with A10. He's then c/raised T83 flop and called it off when button shove Kings and rivered a 10.

Blinds 100/200.

I open 450 UTG+1 at 100/200 with AhKs. Folds to villian in BB he 3 bets to 1200. I call.

Flop is Kh8h3s. Villian bets 3.5k! I flat.

Turn is 6c. Villian now jams.

He can only have one hand right?!?!

and then I chundah'd EVERYWAH.

You've told us he has Aces but I'm still not folding here.

Imo he has AK more often than Aces and you'll see some raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandomly played JJ/QQ sometimes too.

Our equity in the tournament doesnt increase by nearly enough if we double up here .

Our equity in the tournament doesnt increase by nearly enough if we double up here .

This is going to sound stupid. Cos I don't really buy people who talk about blockers. Got to be the most ridic theory ever.

Rofl at this. George you're a smart guy, how can you "not buy" such a simple concept.

Anyway, that's not the point of the thread.

Do we know any kind of rough idea about his 3bet range? Because from your description of him I think a tight 3bet range is a reasonable assumption. He sounds more cally than aggro, but he's obviously one of these guys that tries to get their entire stack in when they think they have the best hand.

Which means that He's either got AK/KK/AA (but way less likely to have KK because of his sizing) if we think his preflop range is AA-JJ AK. He's going to slow down with QQ/JJ on the turn, so I would definitely fold.

Also, even if he is spacking off randomly we can safely assume that our edge on this field is way bigger than our edge in this hand. I think the risk/reward concept is something which a lot of people underrate (including myself). We just give away too much equity by taking such marginal spots in such a soft tournament.

So yeah, I would call flop hoping for him to slow down then fold turn pretty quickly.

i dont get it? i call and im pretty happy.

It depends. Obv he seems cally more than aggro, how old is he? wots he wearing? wots his banter? as a default i'd probably call (don't hero fold vs fish). Not sure i buy into the concept of fold because there are better spots, dtd 300 isn't the wsop main and is rather turbo-y.

Nobody who has said call has told me what hands we expect him to have that give us enough equity to call. Give me a range of hands that are worse than TPTK here that a fish 3bets pre, overbets flop and overbet jams turn with for over 100bbs oop and I will happily concede that I'm wrong.

Bad players have totally different ranges when becoming hyper aggressive like he has in this hand against hands where they call it off like he did in the previous hand with AT.  It is a mistake to assume because he is bad he will be spewy when he is being aggressive.   The fact he calls it off with AT doesn't mean he will 3bet pre light if anything it suggests the opposite.

as leefish is still in the tourney and is your traveling partner/friend i think you should maybe ask him. as it stands if he takes it down today he is gonna tell you how bad you are then punch your face in at the celebration party anyway. please be ready ;)

Lee's a bigger nit then you so would have folded pre

His post flop play in that hand just shows that he has no idea about relative hand strength and only thinks about whether he has the best hand and protecting it. If anything I agree with the previous post that states that this hand is evidence for a fold not a call.

I think thread concludes it's certainly a tough spot and no it's not the easiest fold ever. Close either way.

Two kings left in if he does have dem aces anyway. Ppl seem to have forgotten this. Ul not to get there IMO. 2left in and you only had to hit one. 50/50 init.

I was convinced I was the biggest donko ever for calling there and players like the Monte Carlo Champion would make an easy fold. I feel a lot better now

as leefish is still in the tourney and is your traveling partner/friend i think you should maybe ask him. as it stands if he takes it down today he is gonna tell you how bad you are then punch your face in at the celebration party anyway. please be ready ;)

If villain 3bet lag hero from his blind with  9h Th or  7h 9h or 4h 5h or 5h 7h he flops the fd and adds a str8 draw on the turn when he doesn't shake hero off with his overbet. I don't know how villain plays semi-bluffs from the single A-10 hand, but I do see a lot of fish overbetting draws, esp oop when they've been caught, they just don't slow down. I would at least think about these hands so don't see why the fold is trivial and don't see how one hand provides many reliable tendancies for this villain.

Why would he 3bet any of those hands?  From the description of the player it sounds like he would flat these in the blinds pretty much 100% of the time.  At which point in the thread has this player become a 3betting maniac from oop?

He would 3bet those hands because he thinks hero's out of line, the fact it's his blind, he feels deep enough to afford it, because calling is bad with those hands, and because he's playing poker. The description of the player is he's awful and plays top pair strongly so at what point itt do we learn that he's never capable of this?

He would 3bet those hands because he thinks hero's out of line, the fact it's his blind, he feels deep enough to afford it, because calling is bad with those hands, and because he's playing poker. The description of the player is he's awful and plays top pair strongly so at what point itt do we learn that he's never capable of this?

Youngish but nothing to suggest he's decent or 3 betting wide which is why I'm on the Boba/Sykes/LilDave camp even tho I called. I mean he played the hand like a tard and probs got called by the only worse hand he was ever going to get called by. His bomb on the turn was probably cos there's two hearts on board

Also don't know why he can't have suited KQ. We know he overvalues hands and we know he overbets top pair.

Yah I agree I'm missing how we know villain will 100% peel with all these hands from that one hand.

What you guys are "totally missing" is villain's mentality is totally different in this hand to the A-10 hand. When you get your chips in well beat and spike a miracle on the river it can change your attitude. You feel like you're freerolling and should be out the comp. This can make you looser and more adventurous with all your new spending chips until you lose a few. Not saying that happened here but also not submitting I know 100% how villain is thinking right now from that one hand before. However, I would like to learn how we know all this and how it's 100% a trivial fold.

experience of playing live poker!

Mantis - I know you like to play devils advocate, and "be right" or "not proven wrong", but to be honest PHA is not the place to do it - its frankly quite tedious

Great thread. Thanks for posting the hand George. Lots of interesting observations about images and perceptions at the poker table.
 My first observation is that villian almost certainly recognises George from reading PHA and other threads, if not from previous live encounters.
  Villian is acutely aware that his current stack status is the result of poor play being rewarded by a very kind deck (which happens to most of us from time to time).

 I actually believe that villian's  3 betting range is likely to be very wide and could include the following hands
KQ, KX suited, all pairs inc 66 and 88.
AA, KK, KQ, KJ, K8, 88, 66, K6.

I actually think that your fist mistake was in not 4 betting pre flop. You're hand is way ahead of villian's range and i think that if villian has AA or KK he will more than likely jam all in pre flop and give you an easy decision to fold.

come on guys, has anyone REALLY ever seen a player like this show up with  7h 5h in this spot?

really?

I actually think that your fist mistake was in not 4 betting pre flop. You're hand is way ahead of villian's range and i think that if villian has AA or KK he will more than likely jam all in pre flop and give you an easy decision to fold.
 As played,  you only have TPTK. When villian bets out on the flop, you may well be ahead, and up against KQ, or K6 or some other similar hand. If you had 4 bet pre i think you would have got rid of villian's junk hands, prob incl 88, 66 etc. You would have probably been given an easy decision to fold if you were being crushed pre flop, but as it stands you really don't have any idea whether you are in ahead or not.

You still have a good stack if you FOLD. :)

I cert don't think this is an easy fold.

Why can't a fish who plays a10 like a set on a ten high board deep not play ak/aq/aj or even his fave a10 this way, especially if he sees any of them are sooooooted??

you honestly think he is going to 3bet AT when he previously just called with it? and then randomly overbet, jam for 140bug blinds in a £300 live tournament? We've been given the impression he is a loose passive player which sounds about right so can't see how this would fit into his previous behaviour  -  also he can';t have the NFD or a king and a flush draw, which are the only combos of these hands that would make sendas we have the  Ahrt and the  Kh is on the board

Why can't the fish spazz with jj-kk? Can he ever be semi-bluffing a fd here? Cant think of many tho cos of that important blocker.

KK would be the nuts - don't believe there are any flush draw combo's he 3bets given the blockers we have/can see and again this is a KING high board, people are very wary of king high board because the expect people to have KINGS a lot, if the board was T73 id buy he could have 99 a lot more trying to "protect against overcards" put he doesn't even need to do tht with QQ or JJ

Why do ppl not give such fish credit for spazzing lots in this kinda spot? Fish get real stubborn, they just explode in hands like these.

but he is loose passive, he has shown no tendency to randomly aggro-spazz his chips off, I think giving someone credit for something you have no evidence they are capable of is in general going to be a mistake over assuming they aren't capable until you've seen they have.

Why aren't we ever 4betting pre for value against this donk with ak and position? I'm expecting to be lol'd @here but i know online v such a player i'd be 4b fistpump snapping his 5b jammage.

pretty decent point imo, IDK maybe George just felt the guy had a pretty string 3bet range given that he hasn't really 3bet before and usually played way more passive PF

I guess most nits just do this with qq/kk+ here, for me i'll include ak too against such a potential spazz merchannnnnnnnt.

honestly, what has happened in this thread for people to think this guy is ready to spazz out so violently, he just never shows up with QQ, surely everyone knew he had ACES when we saw him bet 3.5k otf?

Why do i keep saying why?

why, whhhyyy, whhhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy, delilah.

I dunno i'm loving life on the flop and i'm hoping he'll spazz the turn, i gen think live in something pretty shooty late on i'm overjoyed to stack off here. I think ppl overcomplicate the simple.

norrrrrrrrrr way, honestly when he bets 1.5x pot OTF i would be fucking hating my life so much, it just screaaaammmmmmmmm ACES, literally screams them imo

Agree if i haven't seen the a10 hand i'll often fold this turn v unknown.

this should make this spot more of a fold imo - the two spots are completely different

I see keys says it's a trivial fold v this oppo. Interested to hear his opinion why.

do we really wanna hear from a chump who could only manage a 9th in the WSOPE?

[/color]I'm sorry for how rude this is going to sound, but this is so wrong it hurts to read it.

You're giving him WAY too much credit. You really think he's going to 3bet K6o? Come on mate, get real. He overcalled AT oop to a 3bet previously, what makes you think he wouldn't just peel all of these hands now? Why do you think he's going to randomly change his mind? Huge, huge assumptions being made here.

And you are missing the key point that even if he does have airs, with this kind of sizing (and the fish mentality of over valuing tournament life), he just has AA way more than he has random bluffs or semi bluffs, and since we're getting a pretty terrible price due to his over 2x pot jam it just makes it a fold.

Also, 4betting pre is pretty bad. If you think he has a wide 3bet range, (which he really, really doesn't) then he's just going to fold a bunch of hands that you could have got value from post flop if you'd peeled. Also because it's pre antes you don't win a high enough % of your stack to warrant the risk in a spot where you're massively over-repping your hand and are going to find yourself in some tough spots against a pretty tight peeling range where you have to barrel some board textures and it's just not going to work enough.

You really don't want to be over repping your range against this kind of opponent in this spot (imho) because you're going to cut his range down to JJ-KK (he might just try and get AA in pre), and despite how strong you look he's a fish and won't want to fold an overpair on bricky boards (not to mention it's going to be a pretty big pot now because of your 4bet and your strategy for this kind of weak field shouldn't be trying to make fish fold overpairs in huge pots).

Sorry if this is a bit muddled, I'm in a rush. Will clear up anything that doesn't make sense later.

Dave, I don't think it makes a massive difference but in the AT hand he did check/raise the flop. So he has some aggression in him. Ok, he did then proceed to call it off but it was his own aggressive action there that led to all the money getting in the middle.

if he was c/r as some sick merge to try make the guy fold an over-pair, then it makes a difference

if he was c/r because he had the topest pair with the topest kicker it doesn't make any difference aside from further demonstrate he is unlikely to have QQ/JJ here IMO

By 4bet/folding you're turning AK into a bluff.  Since it is a relatively strong hand it makes doing this pretty bad mostly.  With AK you want to 4bet for value when you think villain will either 5 bet bluff a decent amount of the time or 5bet for value with worse hands.  Will our opponent really get 120BBs in pre with a worse ace or a random bluff?  If we dont think so then we can either call and play a flop in position against his 3betting range which might include hands we dominate, and we have position and are pretty deep.  4bet/folding is turning Ak into 72o

I really disagree with your 3bet range for the villain based on the info given in this thread, but if he was 3betting 22+,Ax+, Kx+ then how wide is he 5 betting our 4bet?  If he is still 5betting ridic wide then 4bet/get it in is fine, but if he is 3betting that wide, but only 5betting JJ+/AK then flatting gives us position 120bbs deep where we keep him in, we crush most of his range and we will play better than him postflop most of the time anyway.  In reality , from the description given Id be surprised if they didnt flat almost that entire range.

Dave, I don't think it makes a massive difference but in the AT hand he did check/raise the flop. So he has some aggression in him. Ok, he did then proceed to call it off but it was his own aggressive action there that led to all the money getting in the middle.

Have I ever seen fish acquire a stack and lose them again straight away? err yes.

And big nasty george raising every hand has now raised his big blind. Time to do something about it! In my experience bad players like this when they've got chips are happy to 3bet from their big blind to make the point of "that's what you get for trying to steal my big blind".

In my experience fish tend to spite peel more often than spite 3bet when they perceive someone to be getting out of line.

Also, nobody has mentioned how there are different categories of fish, and each category tends to stick to it's own school of thought. I don't have time to type out the whole cross section, but there is no evidence to suggest that he is anything other than a cally cally fish who only gets aggressive when he thinks he has the best hand.

I'm not sure why people have been overlooking this. As (presumably winning) poker players we're supposed to be using nothing but a combination of our experience and the immediate evidence to come to logical conclusions and make educated decisions based on this. But there has been lots of just assuming that this guy might be randomly getting stubborn and getting aggressive oop all of a sudden despite the evidence (admittedly only a small amount) suggesting otherwise. These kind of assumptions are really common of winning poker players because they always want to think really creatively about hands and often overlook really simple immediate information. This is the difference between good players and really good players. The really good players use all of this information and don't take it for granted.

Got more to say. But for now, surely ppl shld remember that this fish COLD CALLED a 3bet with a10 previously. Thus he massive overrates moderate holdings.

Good to have you on pha Jamie. Poast moarrrrrr

The last two posts perfectly sum up what my rushed posts tried to show. This should be /thread in my opinion now.

Good to have you on pha Jamie. Poast moarrrrrr

In this hand I suspect the A-10 was from a previous round and thus from over 30 minutes ago, but even if it's from this round the dynamics have certainly changed a lot. Villain is feeling intoxicated from hitting miracles, feels like he's freerolling, has more than twice the chips, and is playing a different oppo with a different image. Yet you can deduce from seeing that A-10 hand and only that one hand exactly what type of player we have, what his 3betting range is, how he plays various holdings, and how he's going to play this hand based on knowledge from a different dynamic some time ago. And tbf there are a lot of people who are similarly convinced that they know exactly how this player thinks from seeing that one hand. That is very interesting to me.

George, do you think his demeanour contributed to the call, because I thought he looked really uncomfortable after the shove?

also abso sick value line from this guy

hats off imo

 ;carlocitrone;

One of those, "I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not" moments.

Obv level

FTR, if you haven't figured it out, he had two black aces

I think Mantis, the point ur making here is pretty much the crux of the whole thread.

Idk if this is what you think but I agree with what uv said and think it makes this more of a fold.

We have limited information and can only make assumptions, everything points to the strong possibility of a big hand and the rest circumstantially points to possible bluffs/ spazzes

as we dont know and it's for so many chips surely we should lean to the side of caution.

Maybe he means it. I mean after all, even the villain thinks he played it face up and you should have made a super duper easy fold...lol

Maybe he means it. I mean after all, even the villain thinks he played it face up and you should have made a super duper easy fold...lol

Starting to sound like whinging George :)

Ha mate not at all. If anything more disappointment than anything. Was playing really well and chipping up nicely.

Wtf Mantis? Sometimes I wonder if you're sane. Yeah Simon and I just think information isn't important in poker.

Post some quantitative analysis one day so we can pin you down. Post your name. Post which games you play in. Something so we can justify spending any amount of time reading or answering your posts. Until then, I'll make my posts as short as I like tyvm

good responses from top players like James Sykes

To sum up, despite saying nothing that made any kind of sense in relation to this hand, Mantis is the sole reason this thread because what it did.  Congrats Mantis, you are a hero........

Wtf James? You said "Knowing your opponent's cards in a certain spot 30 mins ago is borderline useless in a live game, that spot will never arise again". Yet this whole thread is driven by that info. This is a completely different spot with lots of dynamics having changed yet people are very very convinced of what they know about villain. Simon was saying it's all about the dynamics and the knee bobbing up and down and you were like that's the best post I've read in a long time. People having such conviction in this useless info supports my line in that live stream debate, which I think is a serious debate to have.

Anyway enough of that. I don't really post on PHA anymore but did have a look at this thread. I like George's threads. I did think your input was a bit lazy really and you could pass on more wisdom than that but w/e that's your choice. I also thought trivial fold needed to be challenged really. Best way to do this I figure is argue for calling. Then I can stimulate debate and get good responses from top players like James Sykes. If you look at this thread now you will see it's by far the most viewed and contributed to thread on PHA. Many more views and posts than the others. A very good debate. Some excellent posts. And in the end a much different conclusion to trivial fold. And there is my justification for posting buddy.

But you want to judge my inclusion in discussions on ability, from your position as a pro? lol. And who is this we I have to justify myself to buddy?

Anyway mate I play the £15 rebuy at Walsall :)

Wtf James? You said "Knowing your opponent's cards in a certain spot 30 mins ago is borderline useless in a live game, that spot will never arise again". Yet this whole thread is driven by that info. This is a completely different spot with lots of dynamics having changed yet people are very very convinced of what they know about villain. Simon was saying it's all about the dynamics and the knee bobbing up and down and you were like that's the best post I've read in a long time. People having such conviction in this useless info supports my line in that live stream debate, which I think is a serious debate to have.

Anyway enough of that. I don't really post on PHA anymore but did have a look at this thread. I like George's threads. I did think your input was a bit lazy really and you could pass on more wisdom than that but w/e that's your choice. I also thought trivial fold needed to be challenged really. Best way to do this I figure is argue for calling. Then I can stimulate debate and get good responses from top players like James Sykes. If you look at this thread now you will see it's by far the most viewed and contributed to thread on PHA. Many more views and posts than the others. A very good debate. Some excellent posts. And in the end a much different conclusion to trivial fold. And there is my justification for posting buddy.

But you want to judge my inclusion in discussions on ability, from your position as a pro? lol. And who is this we I have to justify myself to buddy?

Anyway mate I play the £15 rebuy at Walsall :)

It's fun to have lots of replies isn't it? Your posts are less about "stimulating debate" than you stimulating yourself. As to your 'debate', your friend James Sykes, among many others, has been arguing with you that you can't infer from the previous hand very much about our opponent's range in this hand. Even if we could, which we can't, it would have no relevance to the live streaming holecards debate as the hand went to showdown. That "the whole thread is driven by this debate" is solely your doing, and if you look at what other people are posting once in a while, you'll see that very few mentioned the previous hand in their analysis until you came along, and even then they're telling you it's not relevant.

Why did you feel that "trivial fold" needed to be challenged when you yourself think it is a fold? How is the conclusion 'fold' "very much different" to 'trivial fold'? What's the point in arguing how close a decision is when both sides agree? It's like driving off a cliff and arguing about how fast you were going when you went over the edge. For the rest of us that post on PHA, debate is a means to explore different lines and maybe (although not necessarily) come to a conclusion, it is not an end in itself.

Finally, what is your hangup with my "position as a pro" meaning I can't tell you that you're wrong? Try going on a plumbing forum and telling people who ask for plumbing advice to use lead pipes, see how many nasty "professional" plumbers tell you to gtfo with your archaic plumbing techniques.

It's fun to have lots of replies isn't it? Your posts are less about "stimulating debate" than you stimulating yourself. As to your 'debate', your friend James Sykes, among many others, has been arguing with you that you can't infer from the previous hand very much about our opponent's range in this hand. Even if we could, which we can't, it would have no relevance to the live streaming holecards debate as the hand went to showdown. That "the whole thread is driven by this debate" is solely your doing, and if you look at what other people are posting once in a while, you'll see that very few mentioned the previous hand in their analysis until you came along, and even then they're telling you it's not relevant.

Why did you feel that "trivial fold" needed to be challenged when you yourself think it is a fold? How is the conclusion 'fold' "very much different" to 'trivial fold'? What's the point in arguing how close a decision is when both sides agree? It's like driving off a cliff and arguing about how fast you were going when you went over the edge. For the rest of us that post on PHA, debate is a means to explore different lines and maybe (although not necessarily) come to a conclusion, it is not an end in itself.

Finally, what is your hangup with my "position as a pro" meaning I can't tell you that you're wrong? Try going on a plumbing forum and telling people who ask for plumbing advice to use lead pipes, see how many nasty "professional" plumbers tell you to gtfo with your archaic plumbing techniques.

Pretty trivial fold against a bad player

As to your 'debate', your friend James Sykes, among many others, has been arguing with you that you can't infer from the previous hand very much about our opponent's range in this hand.

lol

Also, is the "your friend James Sykes" thing a rub!?

When villain over-called A-10 oop it provided a lot of information about how he plays. If you read the thread you will see that many people mention that fact when formulating their opinions. I could quote almost everyone but AlexMartin said "we know this guy is bad given prior hands" and NitTendancies said "it shows he's more stationary than spewy aggro". So your point that very few people mention it is fantasy. I don't know why the hand going to showdown is relevant. If the hand didn't go to showdown and these players saw villain over-called oop with A-10 they can infer the very same things about how villain plays, which is seriously unfair. The fact Sykes makes the point that fish don't adapt to dynamics well and are predictable makes access to this info even more unfair. Sorry you can't see that.

The neccessity to challenge was to expand the discussion and get more info and to learn about thought process which is what the board is for. You may think it's a trivial fold and understand why but many others would like a bit more than those two words to understand the thought process of good players. Achieving that wasn't a bad thing.

Finally, you didn't tell me I was wrong you asked me to prove myself. I don't know why you think people have got to be of a certain standard to enter a discussion about a poker hand on the learning part of the forum. I think you use your status to suggest you have more right than lesser players to post, unless they can prove what games they play first. I used to be an assistant golf pro when I was younger. On the course and on the driving range almost everyone was worse than me. I freely offered advice and encouraged them. I didn't fire questions at them asking them to prove themselves to me, or judge what courses they played, or tell them to fuck off the range. I think that would have been a dickhead attitude to people trying to improve in a game I was good at.

Jees seriously mate, how can you try 2 argue with keys? Even i don't do that.

Reading your replies i often switch off half way through.

Look at what keys says and just realise-he's lucid and talks great sense, you ramble and bla bla bla.

Also I've seen James Sykes play one hand on the telly so not really in a position to judge.

Good point actually. Same scenario but I have Q7 and he has Kings. Fold?

You are funny. What if you found out at the break that this guy likes to over jam draws. In fact it's this guys feckin signature move. Trivial fold?