blonde poker forum

Ok so we are deep in the partypoker summer million, with $1600 or so grntd but $203k up top, 97 left, my stack 22bbs.

Table is soft, standard is gen terrible, ppl just seem to play face up/peel way 2 much and don't seem to open nor jam light.

My image isn't exactly like this as my stack has been up/down quite a bit obv adjusting to each diff level of playage within my stack. I've been 3bet/jamming late pos opens v lite with 15-20bbs and getting away with it to compensate for rank holdings.

Also i've prev raised from most positions when my stack was 30 bbs + for the majority of the tournament and there were plenty of steal opportunities available. So i guess i'm viewed as a bit laggy pre when opening, altho obv i'm not raising atc from this stack and position. The reason i'm quite short is due 2 ppl donk peeling and my cbets failing 2 work.


#Game No : 10762927336
***** Hand History for Game 10762927336 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $640 USD Buy-in Trny:62707991 Level:20  Blinds-Antes(8,000/16,000 -1,600) - Sunday, August 07, 20:00:56 EDT 2011
Table Summer Million - $1,000,000 Guaranteed (2322016) Table #4 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9/10
Seat 5: Exan13 ( 99,186 )
Seat 1: Gunshow933 ( 611,087 )
Seat 8: d2thed ( 178,791 )
Seat 10: igorek632 ( 442,061 )
Seat 4: Villain 1 ( 761,143 )
Seat 7: parksy1066 ( 363,632 )
Seat 3: purleydom ( 354,066 )
Seat 2: soucyj ( 622,245 )
Seat 9:Villain 2 ( 247,634 )
Trny:62707991 Level:20
Blinds-Antes(8,000/16,000 -1,600)
Gunshow933 posts ante [1,600]
soucyj posts ante [1,600]
purleydom posts ante [1,600]
Villain 1 posts ante [1,600]
Exan13 posts ante [1,600]
parksy1066 posts ante [1,600]
d2thed posts ante [1,600]
Villain 2 posts ante [1,600]
igorek632 posts ante [1,600]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to purleydom [  Ah Qc )
soucyj folds
purleydom raises [33,559]
Villain 1 is all-In  [759,543]
Exan13 folds
parksy1066 folds
d2thed folds
Villain 2 is all-In  [246,034]
igorek632 folds
Gunshow933 folds
purleydom ??



Obv when i raised i was doing so purely for value and i wasn't thinking of folding, i mean i'm not exactly deep.

I guess with only 1 short stack (under 10bbs still to act) i can raise to fold a wide range of hands.

Structure is nice, 20 minute levels and not massively steep.

Villain1 has shown fish tendencies-has a bad sharkscope, and is guilty of overplaying certain broadway hands and peeling oop with weak aces etc. Villain 2 is an unknown to me.

What do ppl think about these ranges here? IRT without running stove this is basically what i assigned both.

Villain 1 99/AQS+

Villain 2 Same

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  25,857,903,456  games    74.526 secs   346,964,864  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    20.704%     19.11%    01.60%        4940225880    413359680.00   { AQo }
Hand 1:    39.648%     36.84%    02.81%        9525646980    726511968.00   { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2:    39.648%     36.84%    02.81%        9525646980    726511968.00   { 99+, AQs+, AKo }


I felt like a super nit when considering folding here with 20bbs getting roughly 2-1, but 3 ways with aqo?

Stove says i need 3.8-1 against these ranges-wow snap fold apparently.

So i guess an easy fold right I mean if we give these ppl esp spazzy villain 1 such tight ranges?

Appreciate all thoughts, especially if we are snapping if villain 2does not come along for the ride?


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 904,096,512  games     2.187 secs   413,395,753  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    33.308%     30.42%    02.89%         275032032     26102730.00   { AQo }
Hand 1:    66.692%     63.81%    02.89%         576859020     26102730.00   { 99+, AQs+, AKo }



Stove says we need 2-1 to snap his head off in that coup if it's the same range.

Getting barely 1.4-1 isn't this a snap fold too?

I just think such spots cause me big problems shallow deep on. Appreciate all constructive feedback.

I'm not often raise/folding from 22 bigs but this is a fold. In fact villian 1 hands looks so much like AK I may have folded to just the 1 bet

Think villain 1s range is more like 88/99-JJ/QQ and AQ+ unless there is previous evidence of him just 3bet jamming 40bbs effective with AA/KK.  Its not impossible for him to be doing that here, if he is a losing player he might be getting nervous being this deep in a $640 tourney that he probably satted into and just overplays his big hands to save himself from any preflop decisions but I think unless we have seen him do it before then we have to assume he 3bets for value mostly with AA/KK and maybe QQ.

Villain 2 I think 99 and AQ is a fold, however since he is an unknown I added it in anyway because its not an unrealistic call.

So when I stoved these ranges I got.....

2,095,882,866  games     2.648 secs   791,496,550  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    20.717%     17.53%    03.19%         367414230     66782585.83   { AhQc }
Hand 1:    30.103%     25.96%    04.15%         544015103     86911674.33   { QQ-88, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2:    49.180%     46.26%    02.92%         969653167     61106105.83   { TT+, AQs+, AKo }

Your equity doesnt really change if we take AA/KK out of villain 1s range so its still a fold.

So opening here you need to be prepared to call shoves from seats 5, 8 and 9 and you can call profitably if they are shoving 77+/AT+/KQ which i dont think is an unreasonable shoving range for those stacks.  With just this I think is fine to open here and then raise/decide agains the other stacks depending on sizing/position/how wide they are 3betting etc.  And sometimes you will just run into spots like this with multiple action behind forcing a fold.

I said this in your last post, and I think that with very marginal spots on a Sunday, I prefer to do a fold on the grounds that we can chip up and keep grinding hard until  a less marginal spot occurs.

Im not sure you wont agree, but def my default line

Meh, I probably fold here...and sigh and say FML for having to fold.

and then reallly say "FML!" when they flip their KJ/KQ over.

fold..better spots imo..ur following classic small ball guidelines here..ur in for 10% of ur stack and AQ beats nothing genuine..id rather be the one pushing here than calling off .... i feel with so many to act after this is a hand that crushes you..

This is a very very standard fold. Our hand doesn't run anywhere near as well as we need to against two pretty tight ranges 3 way when we can fold and still have 21bbs.

Snap fold, not worth a second thought.

In which kind of spots should we be considering an open fold here?  Going by this description, being oop to a peel postflop with our stacksize doesnt seem like much fun, and if players are never jamming light then there must be a point when open folding is the best option?

I think here is ok to open as there are 3 of the 6 to act are <20bbs and should be shoving wide enough to call with AQ, but generally if there was, for example, 1x15bb stack, 2x25-30bb stacks and 3x30+bb stacks with the same description.  Should we be open folding off a 17-25bb stack?

Very much along my lines of thought also. Tyvm for your comments so far fett.

Ty so far for all the comments, i'll say what i did in a bit.

I expected ppl to say 3 ways this is a standard fold, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Be more interested to hear what ppl's thoughts are about whether or not we call if we are heads up with villain 1?

I mean obv aq is right near the bottom of my value raising range here. I'm rsng ajstd and folding ajo. I'm folding pairs below 8's i think.

Villain1 is one of the few i have half decent  info on, obv our position in this hand sucks tho. Lp i'd be snapping his jams much more liberally.

Agree somehat with yr last point and seriously wld consider a dirty nitty fold with those stacks, irl doubt i'd ever do so though with so many passive fish around in the comp.

Yeah but we can balance that by 3bet jamming ourselves or peeling in position and generally winning more pots from later position with worse hands.  With an awkward stack size even a bad villain and make life pretty hard for us postflop, Im pretty guilty of just liberally opening no matter what.

fold first guys range that you posted is too wide

Ty 4 all replies, still am not sure if i'm folding hu altho rupert's point about villain's 1 range being too wide is possibly correct. Altho i did make it that wide due to his prev history of overplaying bad aces and broadways.

Anyway i instantly folded as it was 3 ways and saw that villain 1 had tens and villain 2 aq std.

Aq flopped a queen and won the hand.

well this changes everything!

:D

finally, we agree met

Obv it's a standard fold 3 ways. They'd have be maniacs to consider stacking off 3 ways here.

Thread was more about problems in raise folding from 22 bbs with a 'value' hand like this. And whether or not it's a call if it's heads up with villain 1.

Prob shlda made this more clear in OP. Just wanted 2 hear constructive feedback while also have some opinions about what kind of range we stack off with here 3 ways, i'm assuming JJ/AK+? Maybe folding JJ on nit days?

people get too stuck in a rut with standard rules, like "oh i never open/fold off 15bb, these days and forever really you have to assess situations and be able to adjust decisions. No mater how mundane a play seems, different dynamics occur sometimes where you can change a standard raise call from the button to a snap fold. Don't get stubborn, relax and take the new problem in and come to a good decision.