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Title: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: giveyourcash on September 08, 2011, 02:11:17 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am.
5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: outragous76 on September 08, 2011, 02:14:46 PM play online if these are your concerns?
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: kinboshi on September 08, 2011, 02:17:58 PM Or just lose all the time. No rake!!
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 08, 2011, 02:22:37 PM some well made points imo.
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: AndrewT on September 08, 2011, 02:32:42 PM Live rake is lolbad
Luckily live players are lolololbad, which makes up for it. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: bobAlike on September 08, 2011, 02:41:33 PM Hourly sessions FTW
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Skippy on September 08, 2011, 02:43:52 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am. 5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/tumblrstuff/2n7jo79.gif) Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: outragous76 on September 08, 2011, 02:50:54 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am. 5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/tumblrstuff/2n7jo79.gif) rotflmfao lol'd very hard Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: giveyourcash on September 08, 2011, 02:52:25 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am. 5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. Suggestions? The recreational players drive the market. No one gives a damn what regs think because they are a drain on the poker economy too. You need a few regs to start games and keep flagging games going but 4 per table will do that just as well as 44 and you'll always be able to find 4 regs. There are two types of losing player, ones who know they lose and are in it for the fun and ones who "about break even". Generally neither care about rake levels in the slightest, the first because they're losing anyway so who cares where it goes and the second because they are generally oblivious. Make the fun guys aware how much longer the good times would roll with a more sensible rake structure, and convince the second that the only reason they're not the superstars they "deserve" to be is because of the rake box (it's only half a lie). If the losing players revolt things will change fast. Fish generally get their way in a poker room (I've never had a table made 9 handed to accommodate me). Just my off the top of the head idea I'm sure other will have better ideas. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: giveyourcash on September 08, 2011, 02:55:23 PM (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/tumblrstuff/2n7jo79.gif) I think plenty of people would be surprised to learn how much their hobby costs them. I did laugh though. :) Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Pyso on September 08, 2011, 05:15:08 PM I agree that 10% rake capped at £7 is terrible, but since they changed it my win rate has actually gone up. Which is odd.
I'm not sure there is much we can do about it, but it will be interesting to see if the hypothetical venue you speak of responds to some local competition that has recently introduced much more player friendly rake... A friend of mine played in Amsterdam recently and the rake there was 10 % UNCAPPED so maybe it isn't so bad after all. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: AndrewT on September 08, 2011, 05:20:10 PM Crown Casino in Melbourne has rake and a time charge (something like 10% up to $8 plus $10 per hour)
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: GreekStein on September 08, 2011, 05:27:24 PM Play in a game thats 5% rake capped at £100. Obv super juicy mega whales in the game and the guys who run it extend credit
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: cambridgealex on September 08, 2011, 05:49:25 PM **BREAKING NEWS**
Following the flop of the latest Grand Prix, DTDs announces their total overlay for the year is at an astonishing £350,000. In response, management have decided to halve the rake on all cash games. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: cambridgealex on September 08, 2011, 05:55:32 PM Btw I happen to know how much this hypothetical venue makes in rake per hour per 1/2 and 50/1 game and it's not as much as you say it is.
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Skgv on September 08, 2011, 06:00:44 PM **BREAKING NEWS** mmmm is this a wind up or a serious post ?Following the flop of the latest Grand Prix, DTDs announces their total overlay for the year is at an astonishing £350,000. In response, management have decided to halve the rake on all cash games. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Karabiner on September 08, 2011, 06:02:22 PM Crown Casino in Melbourne has rake and a time charge (something like 10% up to $8 plus $10 per hour) And you have to pay for your drinks at the table. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: robyong on September 08, 2011, 06:31:57 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am. 5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. Hi I have read this. Your figures are only overstated by about 25% which is not bad for a person that feels the need to actually start a brand new thread on this subject. You also should really break down the costs that your huge contribution in rake pays for (after gaming tax,dealer, chip runner, valet, drinks). Clearly you feel you are being taken advantage off/ripped off. Please come and ask for me at reception if you ever pass by my club again and I will give you an accurate breakdown personally. One thing I would say on this matter, is that we now have a great promotion for online regs (online fpps spend in club) and for live tourney players (final table leaderboard), so we should have something for our cash game regs, i have left this till last because its harder to track than online player and live tourney play, but its on the list to do (I admit, its been on the list for a long time). Im fact, you can argue that cash game regs dont get looked after as much as tourney players by Dusk Till Dawn, as they have had £350k added so far this year in sats and comps, so I know we have a gap here to fill, only last week i was asking cash game players what we could do for them, so its on the list :) Cheers Rob Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 08, 2011, 06:36:48 PM Fml. Don't give anymore away as my wife is already looking at property around Nottingham.
I actually love my life in Scunthorpe lol Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: ManuelsMum on September 08, 2011, 07:40:59 PM I don't want to play in the type of game that has people in it who care much about rake.
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: david3103 on September 09, 2011, 10:09:29 AM Are the cash game regulars not 'looked after' by the influx of recreational players attracted into the club by tournaments?
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: KarmaDope on September 09, 2011, 10:16:34 AM Nice post OP.
Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income. Not profit, income. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 09, 2011, 10:32:25 AM Nice post OP. do you pay supertax on your blogging fee as well Adam?Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income. Not profit, income. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Skippy on September 09, 2011, 11:17:16 AM Nice post OP. Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income. Not profit, income. I was going to post this, but I looked it up (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P49_2736) and it turns out that it only goes up to 50% after they are raking £4m per quarter, which I doubt they are. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: kinboshi on September 09, 2011, 12:07:13 PM Nice post OP. Now please go back, edit it, and halve them all to account for the 50% tax on all income. Not profit, income. I was going to post this, but I looked it up (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P49_2736) and it turns out that it only goes up to 50% after they are raking £4m per quarter, which I doubt they are. http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000258&propertyType=document#P134_10540 (links to the figures) Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 09, 2011, 12:24:46 PM lol. some nosey gits about. will we be publishing the dtd accounts next.
do some of you forget how badly poker players were treated pre dtd days. lets be thankful and recognise a good thing when we have it. i dont care if the place makes or loses as long as present staff and owners stay at the helm and continues to provide the best cardroom in europe. :) Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: scotty77 on September 09, 2011, 12:40:33 PM Say you're playing a hypothetical 1/2 game with 10% rake up to £7. Lets take some conservative numbers; 20 hands an hour, an average pot size of £50 (for example a raise to £8 with 2 callers a £13 cbet called and no more action), a game that runs from 8pm to 4am. 5 X 20 X 8 = £800 If you sat in a game every single night with a guy who sat down, won £800 and never lost how quickly would you get tired of seeing him? At an 8 handed table that's half a stack per person per night. If you took every day you've played poker and added £100 to your bottom line how much richer would you be? For a comparison online rake is usually 5% up to $3 (~£2) usually with around 30% rakeback. I know that casinos have to pay dealers (minimum wage + your money in tips) and wait-staff (minimum wage + your money in tips) and generally have to provide food (at vastly inflated prices) and drinks (sometimes free). I'm sure heating and lighting can get expensive and hell we all want to make a profit. I'm a free market advocate, I'm happy for people to charge what the market will bear, I just feel that in this case consumers are grossly ill informed about the true costs of the product they are purchasing (there's a reason the drop box is hidden under the table). I'm hoping that recreational players (and regs too) start caring more about the rake, realise how much damage it is doing to their bankroll and change the market so that it will no longer bear such a heavy cost. Hi I have read this. Your figures are only overstated by about 25% which is not bad for a person that feels the need to actually start a brand new thread on this subject. You also should really break down the costs that your huge contribution in rake pays for (after gaming tax,dealer, chip runner, valet, drinks). Clearly you feel you are being taken advantage off/ripped off. Please come and ask for me at reception if you ever pass by my club again and I will give you an accurate breakdown personally. One thing I would say on this matter, is that we now have a great promotion for online regs (online fpps spend in club) and for live tourney players (final table leaderboard), so we should have something for our cash game regs, i have left this till last because its harder to track than online player and live tourney play, but its on the list to do (I admit, its been on the list for a long time). Im fact, you can argue that cash game regs dont get looked after as much as tourney players by Dusk Till Dawn, as they have had £350k added so far this year in sats and comps, so I know we have a gap here to fill, only last week i was asking cash game players what we could do for them, so its on the list :) Cheers Rob But yeah I can never understand the criticism DTD gets. The way the club is run and treats its members is second to none and is the reason why other UK venues have had to pull up their act in recent times. I very much doubt that the G would have attempted the Goliath without DTDs influence on the live UK poker scene. When most online rooms are showing falling traffic, live poker in the UK is still going very strong and DTD is a big part of that. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: zerofive on September 09, 2011, 12:54:47 PM YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guF4Av4sIgg
;grr; Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: DungBeetle on September 09, 2011, 04:30:13 PM I'm not sure there is much money in people providing live poker venues as it is to be fair. Rake is moaned about, but most players don't drink and there is heating, lighting, salaries etc to pay for. Do you expect live venues to provide a game for you at a loss? If you are a winning player why shouldn't the venue take a cut because they facilitate your profession?
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: Pyso on September 09, 2011, 05:17:39 PM I think we all agree that the rake is just a necessary evil.
I accept it as the tax I pay for playing the game. By the way, when I say the rake is bad I just mean bad in a "bugger, we have to pay it" sense, not bad that DTD charges it, because I understand that they have to and there's no getting round it. DTD provides a brilliant place to play poker and I would hate it if it ever went away. I know I've been critical of the tournament structures (ok, and the toilets) but I have also been very complimentary about the dozens of things they do so brilliantly and long may it continue. And that can only happen with rake I'm afraid. I understand why Rob Yong gets upset at people posting negative articles about DTD when he went to so much expense and time to set it up, but beneath all the perceived negativity I think there is some helpful feedback in there too and Rob is smart enough to know this. I'm sure the place will continue to evolve and set the benchmark for European poker. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: SuuPRlim on September 09, 2011, 08:41:56 PM The rake at DTD is high I grant you that...
....BUT.... ...they have by FARRRRR the best dealers, by FARRRRRRR the best tables/chairs/room/atmosphere/chips and all little things that do matter than anywhere else in the UK (aside from a couple of london places who are also very good - but miles ahead of gala/grosvenor etc and the bigger chains) so it's just like anything else, if you want a bit more quality you need to pay a bit more money. to be honest, and I've played a LOT of live poker, I barely notice the rake wherever I go, so I imagine most of the "recreational players" who aren't aware how much they are paying are prolly pretty blissfull in their ignorance. when i look on my holdem manager and see that I've paid $70,000 in rake so far this year it makes me feel a little ill, sigh. Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: CHIPPYMAN on September 10, 2011, 03:43:42 AM my advice is DONT PLAY POKER.
NO PLAY NO RAKE OR NO WORK NO TAXES.. make sense bud? stay home and claim the doll .... 03io[vjw mcx'0om-pwid-2p= 2-p=- p-2p [2p[ p[p p=p ==2[pew= =1[ =w=1[ w=[= w[ Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 10, 2011, 09:09:41 AM Lol. Claim the dole Frankie. Almost as funny as you phoning me on the day of mums funeral asking why she's gone to Bury.
Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: dik9 on September 10, 2011, 11:29:27 AM Lol. Claim the dole Frankie. Almost as funny as you phoning me on the day of mums funeral asking why she's gone to Bury. Is it bad taste to laugh at this? Sorry Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: CHIPPYMAN on September 10, 2011, 11:33:39 AM shitty VILLA fan....
gtfo.... sorry i meant DOLE Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: boldie on September 10, 2011, 02:46:59 PM Lol. Claim the dole Frankie. Almost as funny as you phoning me on the day of mums funeral asking why she's gone to Bury. rotflmfao Title: Re: Rake : Know your enemy! Post by: smashedagain on September 10, 2011, 08:17:08 PM Lol. Claim the dole Frankie. Almost as funny as you phoning me on the day of mums funeral asking why she's gone to Bury. Is it bad taste to laugh at this? Sorry but he knows i love him |