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Title: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 14, 2011, 05:05:19 PM Playing local live comp in Reigate last night, is a freeroll for everyone tournament winner over the past couple of months. £700 + up top, and theres 6 of us left. Villiain is virtually unknown as he is playing another comp at the same time that is running in the same card room :S and keeps changing between tournaments so no real idea what hes like.
Villain: 50k Hero: 65k Blinds are 2k 4k Villian opens utg + 1 to 13k and is anxiously looking over at the other tournament as its Final table on there too and his blinds are fast approaching. I wake up in the SB with Ac Jc ....what are peoples opinions on where to take the hand from here?? Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: outragous76 on September 14, 2011, 05:23:40 PM tank
let him call the clock on you Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: outragous76 on September 14, 2011, 05:24:36 PM other peoples stacks and payouts required for the real answer
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 14, 2011, 05:32:16 PM Payouts: (roughly)
1st. £760 2nd. £470 3rd. £310 4th. £190 5th. £150 6th. £110 Stacks, one huge chipleader and then rest of us all between 40k and 70k with chip leader close to 200k... Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: SuuPRlim on September 14, 2011, 05:51:00 PM are there antes?
mandatory all-in if there is, not sure otherwise spose it depends on the player, think id still be allin as a general Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: pleno1 on September 14, 2011, 05:54:16 PM all my discs.
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 14, 2011, 09:03:49 PM No antes and has generally been a very tight table, i eventually folded as there seemed to be better spots to pick up chips with less risk on the table ??
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: SuuPRlim on September 14, 2011, 09:21:16 PM No antes and has generally been a very tight table, i eventually folded as there seemed to be better spots to pick up chips with less risk on the table ?? there is no way to pick up chips in the spot your in without wagering all your chips. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: muckthenuts on September 14, 2011, 10:42:52 PM No antes and has generally been a very tight table, i eventually folded as there seemed to be better spots to pick up chips with less risk on the table ?? there is no way to pick up chips in the spot your in without wagering all your chips. +1. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: DMorgan on September 14, 2011, 11:25:29 PM Jamming all day
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: outragous76 on September 14, 2011, 11:34:56 PM I dont think fold or jam are particularly bad with no antes - player dependant
def tank thou - tilt him up Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: boldie on September 15, 2011, 07:14:26 AM I shove.
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: class on September 15, 2011, 01:03:41 PM Are we assuming that everyone else folded up to this point? Anyway, i'm shoving here and hoping the BB doesn't have a hand he can call with!
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: boldie on September 15, 2011, 01:17:55 PM Are we assuming that everyone else folded up to this point? Anyway, i'm shoving here and hoping the BB doesn't have a hand he can call with! Pretty much, yes...though I hope villain calls with a fairly weak but pretty looking hand (as live players often do..KQ sooted etc) Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: PizzicatoXev on September 15, 2011, 01:40:46 PM I fold...
The guy is calling far too often to make this profitable long term though it may be good in a vacuum... If he is worried about the other table, which basically has him in the same table position as this one, he won't be opening very much he will be folding to a jam. Getting into a flip, even against KQ is a pretty decently sized mistake at this point in the tournament due to icm considerations. There are a few hands that we may have dominated but there just simply isn't enough of them. I do agree with tanking as long as possible though simply because there is a small chance he will just go over to the other table and subsequently forfeit the hand in which case we can shove, fist pump and chew gum at the same time. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: kukushkin88 on September 15, 2011, 02:20:37 PM I fold... The guy is calling far too often to make this profitable long term though it may be good in a vacuum... If he is worried about the other table, which basically has him in the same table position as this one, he won't be opening very much he will be folding to a jam. Getting into a flip, even against KQ is a pretty decently sized mistake at this point in the tournament due to icm considerations. There are a few hands that we may have dominated but there just simply isn't enough of them. I do agree with tanking as long as possible though simply because there is a small chance he will just go over to the other table and subsequently forfeit the hand in which case we can shove, fist pump and chew gum at the same time. I'm a little rusty on all things poker at the moment but I can't see anyway getting in against KQ here is an ICM mistake. Looks like a great scenario to me. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: boldie on September 15, 2011, 02:42:40 PM I fold... The guy is calling far too often to make this profitable long term though it may be good in a vacuum... If he is worried about the other table, which basically has him in the same table position as this one, he won't be opening very much he will be folding to a jam. Getting into a flip, even against KQ is a pretty decently sized mistake at this point in the tournament due to icm considerations. There are a few hands that we may have dominated but there just simply isn't enough of them. I do agree with tanking as long as possible though simply because there is a small chance he will just go over to the other table and subsequently forfeit the hand in which case we can shove, fist pump and chew gum at the same time. I'm a little rusty on all things poker at the moment but I can't see anyway getting in against KQ here is an ICM mistake. Looks like a great scenario to me. This for me. If I'm ahead I'm delighted with a call. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: PizzicatoXev on September 15, 2011, 02:44:15 PM Its a mistake because we lose approximately 60% of the time and we should be able to get third place or better if we fold.
Given his likely openening range, its very likely we are coinflipping (with a small amount of dead money) and some of the time he has us crushed. There are only 3 or 4 possible hands that he has in his likely range that we are crushing (A8, A9, AT, KJ) and there are far more hands in his range that crush us. Obviously if we have reads on the villain that he is a spewtard we can get it in here, but with the history/information or lack thereof we have been given so far we should err on the side of caution. The fact that we are also currently the small blind also lends itself to a fold as we have the maximum number of 'free' hands (though in fairness we probably have a couple of orbits anyway) to be able to open ship with fold equity and for someone else (or two!) to make a mistake/bust out. The final thing to consider is that if we do go all in here and win, how much of a difference does it actually make to our chances of winning/getting hu? In this case I also think its not quite enough... Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 15, 2011, 08:14:36 PM Thanks for opinions guys, I eventually folded to which he shows me an A, sighhh but i guess could still be locked! Went on to grind to HU as i thought i could , one reasoning behind my fold as was a really soft table. Came out 2nd after getting a 8:1 chip deficit back to 2:1 and eventually getting it in, with A4 v Q6 and it coming Q high sighhh
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: muckthenuts on September 16, 2011, 12:27:19 AM Its a mistake because we lose approximately 60% of the time and we should be able to get third place or better if we fold. Given his likely openening range, its very likely we are coinflipping (with a small amount of dead money) and some of the time he has us crushed. There are only 3 or 4 possible hands that he has in his likely range that we are crushing (A8, A9, AT, KJ) and there are far more hands in his range that crush us. We have ~12bb's, if there's ever a point to pass up an edge in tournament poker (i dont believe there ever is) this definitely isn't one. With fold equity + equity vs his calling range, shoving is +ev. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: SuuPRlim on September 16, 2011, 02:22:49 PM Getting into a flip, even against KQ is a pretty decently sized mistake at this point in the tournament due to icm considerations. There are a few hands that we may have dominated but there just simply isn't enough of them. I really don't want to be rude but that has to completely flawed logic, getting AJ in vs KQ for 12bb's isn't anywhere near a mistake, it's a dream. I think what you mean is we are not much ahead of flipping vs his calling range you don't think we have much fold equity which I can deo understand and actually agree with mostly, but if we're 50% vs his callign range here we wanna be jamming and fkn loving life whilst we do it imo Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 16, 2011, 07:03:11 PM You think ICM based its a bad fold then? Knowing i can easily make another 2 spots for sure unless getting coolered and by doubling up it will hardly have any impact on my chances vs the chip leader. I would prefer to be doing the shoving with AJ rather than shoving and letting him call me off with a better hand 80% of the time??
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: boldie on September 16, 2011, 07:08:58 PM You think ICM based its a bad fold then? Knowing i can easily make another 2 spots for sure unless getting coolered and by doubling up it will hardly have any impact on my chances vs the chip leader. I would prefer to be doing the shoving with AJ rather than shoving and letting him call me off with a better hand 80% of the time?? what makes you think he has a better hand 80% of the time? This is a live free roll and the guy has one eye on the proper tourney. Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 16, 2011, 08:46:16 PM The proper tourney was worth less money than the freeroll....
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: kinboshi on September 16, 2011, 09:12:46 PM Craig, are you folding 99 in the same situation?
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: SuuPRlim on September 16, 2011, 11:32:59 PM how can you easily make another 2 spots when you have 12bb's, one of the shorter guys doubles and you're no way near gtd 2 pay steps
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: craiggg999 on September 18, 2011, 02:36:10 PM The tables uber soft, I have tight players either side of me hence I'm shoving 90% of the time when it folds round! No I dont fold 99, I'm pretty sure he has Ax meaning I'm more than likely to have 3 outs!
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: SuuPRlim on September 18, 2011, 05:18:13 PM assuming you have by any means locked up 3rd place money here would be a huge mistake imo
Title: Re: AJ in the small blind.... Post by: kukushkin88 on September 18, 2011, 06:59:47 PM The tables uber soft, I have tight players either side of me hence I'm shoving 90% of the time when it folds round! No I dont fold 99, I'm pretty sure he has Ax meaning I'm more than likely to have 3 outs! It seems to me you that you made a mistake in this hand, plenty of good players have said so. It isn´t a good idea to seek the advice of good players and when you disagree with them, retrospectively add in to the mix a number of bad assumptions to justify your play. After the OP you have added several assumptions you say you made at the time, most of them look very flawed. Not trying to have a go, please take this in the spirit it is intended i.e constructively. |