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Title: Did i play this bad? Post by: gregior on September 19, 2011, 05:34:33 AM This is from the 215 dbl chance turbo
We are down to last 5 with 4.5k locked up already other payouts are: 4th 6,650 3rd 8,930 2nd 11,780 1st 16,340 It was folded round to me in the SB and at the time i didn't think twice about shoving but looking back i think it was a very dubious play considering there were 2 stacks with only ~2bb's http://www.pokerhand.org/?6211344 thaughts? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: GreekStein on September 19, 2011, 06:05:41 AM I'd do the same. ul though, brutal with the 2 shorties.
Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: mondatoo on September 19, 2011, 07:02:41 AM Cooler, ul.
Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: outragous76 on September 19, 2011, 11:28:28 AM its a weird one
there is a strong likelihood that the shorties will bump into one another and therefore you will only ludder 1 spot (obv not a guarantee) on this basis i jam here - but it could well be a technical fold oh, and its cold - vul Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 11:44:36 AM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: outragous76 on September 19, 2011, 12:09:44 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? no Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: SuuPRlim on September 19, 2011, 12:55:43 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? I think we want a fold here 100% of the time Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: George2Loose on September 19, 2011, 12:57:25 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Icm disaster to call it off here? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 01:16:08 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Icm disaster to call it off here? This is why ICM sucks. We raise and get shoved on by worse and have to fold in case we lose. Alternatively we shove and only get called by better. Should we be shoving a lot wider here if we're only getting called by AK/AQ and big pairs? What would we need to raise/call? Does ICM just force us in to lot's of coolers? Btw. I understand that ICM is mathematically perfect and all that bollocks but do we get in this spot enough times for the long term EV to ever come in to effect? Should we just let the big stack have his own way and pummle us in to submission? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: GreekStein on September 19, 2011, 02:56:39 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Icm disaster to call it off here? This is why ICM sucks. We raise and get shoved on by worse and have to fold in case we lose. Alternatively we shove and only get called by better. Should we be shoving a lot wider here if we're only getting called by AK/AQ and big pairs? What would we need to raise/call? Does ICM just force us in to lot's of coolers? Btw. I understand that ICM is mathematically perfect and all that bollocks but do we get in this spot enough times for the long term EV to ever come in to effect? Should we just let the big stack have his own way and pummle us in to submission? We're not gonna raise fold though if we do raise mate. We dont want him to reshove 23o on us. We just want folds here. We're not gonna shove wider because then we're increasing our risk of busto which we don't want with the 2 shorties in. We shove AQ cos it's so strong. Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: PizzicatoXev on September 19, 2011, 03:19:25 PM Sucky sucky cooler...
Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 03:22:37 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Icm disaster to call it off here? This is why ICM sucks. We raise and get shoved on by worse and have to fold in case we lose. Alternatively we shove and only get called by better. Should we be shoving a lot wider here if we're only getting called by AK/AQ and big pairs? What would we need to raise/call? Does ICM just force us in to lot's of coolers? Btw. I understand that ICM is mathematically perfect and all that bollocks but do we get in this spot enough times for the long term EV to ever come in to effect? Should we just let the big stack have his own way and pummle us in to submission? We're not gonna raise fold though if we do raise mate. We dont want him to reshove 23o on us. We just want folds here. We're not gonna shove wider because then we're increasing our risk of busto which we don't want with the 2 shorties in. We shove AQ cos it's so strong. So we prefer to raise and win what's there rather than raise and call when he has 23? That's what I'm getting at. Also how does raising wider increase our chances of busto if we're only getting called when we're muffed anyway? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: outragous76 on September 19, 2011, 04:00:57 PM we cant raise/get it in cause he SHOULD peel 100% to hit
we hate our life when he does Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: claypole on September 19, 2011, 04:54:09 PM I shove all day Greg - I don't think i am ever folding and as discussed the raise is just horrible and put us in a position we don't want to be in...its just a cooler.
Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: gregior on September 19, 2011, 05:31:38 PM Thanks for the replies guys :)
Supose i feel a lil bit better now ;goodluck;about my play after seeing the replies Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: GreekStein on September 19, 2011, 05:42:10 PM Shouldn't we be raise/calling here rather than shipping the lot in and getting him to fold 100% of worse hands? Icm disaster to call it off here? This is why ICM sucks. We raise and get shoved on by worse and have to fold in case we lose. Alternatively we shove and only get called by better. Should we be shoving a lot wider here if we're only getting called by AK/AQ and big pairs? What would we need to raise/call? Does ICM just force us in to lot's of coolers? Btw. I understand that ICM is mathematically perfect and all that bollocks but do we get in this spot enough times for the long term EV to ever come in to effect? Should we just let the big stack have his own way and pummle us in to submission? We're not gonna raise fold though if we do raise mate. We dont want him to reshove 23o on us. We just want folds here. We're not gonna shove wider because then we're increasing our risk of busto which we don't want with the 2 shorties in. We shove AQ cos it's so strong. So we prefer to raise and win what's there rather than raise and call when he has 23? That's what I'm getting at. Also how does raising wider increase our chances of busto if we're only getting called when we're muffed anyway? exactly, with the payyouts and stacks as they are, we dont wanna be racing even vs a fairly dominated hand. Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 07:32:24 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options.
So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: George2Loose on September 19, 2011, 07:35:09 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options. So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? How do you flip cards up online? What a player!!! Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 07:36:25 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options. So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? How do you flip cards up online? What a player!!! Was expecting that from Gatso tbh :) Well done for beating him to it. Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: George2Loose on September 19, 2011, 07:40:55 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options. So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? How do you flip cards up online? What a player!!! Was expecting that from Gatso tbh :) Well done for beating him to it. OMG. Take that back!!! Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: EvilPie on September 19, 2011, 07:47:01 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options. So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? How do you flip cards up online? What a player!!! Was expecting that from Gatso tbh :) Well done for beating him to it. OMG. Take that back!!! No! You're keeping that one forever! Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: George2Loose on September 19, 2011, 07:48:31 PM Don't get me wrong I would've shoved in this spot but was interested in any options. So given same stack sizes imagine for some reason we limp our AQ and our opponent shoves then turns his cards face up. What do we need him to have for us to call? If he's got AJ or KQ does ICM still tell us to fold? How do you flip cards up online? What a player!!! Was expecting that from Gatso tbh :) Well done for beating him to it. OMG. Take that back!!! No! You're keeping that one forever! Can we delete posts? MODS?!?! If we don't I'm gonna start randomly sweating at you and calling you mum names Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: Rupert on September 20, 2011, 12:32:40 AM http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=20000&sb=10000&ante=200&structure=0.38%2C0.27%2C0.2%2C0.15&s1=55800&s2=152632&s3=39462&s4=232224&s5=659882&s6=&s7=&s8=&s9=
dont think i made any mistakes, clear jam tho Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: geordieneil on September 20, 2011, 01:00:34 AM I shove all day Greg - I don't think i am ever folding and as discussed the raise is just horrible and put us in a position we don't want to be in...its just a cooler. Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: action man on September 20, 2011, 01:09:12 PM pussies, raise/call it off and win the comp.
we arent really even locked 3rd, Its a turbo, 1 double from a shorty and a few shoves he has more of us expect the bb to use the dynamic loads and ship on us really wide, playing devils advocate a bit here but if we are playing to win the tournament, surely 2.5x/call is just as good as the jam. If you have been consistently jamming bvb then obv jam, but if not i may R/C. The thing is in this spot, by shoving with the stack it actually tightens your range up whereas opening widens it. If the bb showed any predilection for being overly agg and using the dynamic well, id 2.4/5x call his ass Title: Re: Did i play this bad? Post by: alfiesdad on September 20, 2011, 04:01:45 PM Its a shove most of the time for me, but occasionaly limp, dependant on bvb dynamic.
This opens up chance of hittin the flop that could get the double up with little risk and if he does RR small pre, there could be some F.E to shove ott. Plus we can still be called with worse a decent amount of times in this scenario. In addition folding to his shove pre and losing the extra 10k with the stack sizes as they are makes no difference to folding pre, hence I never fold pre here. Its not such an easy one given the open shove is very rarely called and ahead,but given he folds most of his pocket pairs which is our prefered scenario, I favour the shove mainly. Think you can afford missin top spot for once anyhow Greg ;-) |