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Community Forums => The Lounge => Topic started by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 09:27:39 AM



Title: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 09:27:39 AM
If you spill a 100L drum  of diesel on a road surface - how much area of road would you expect to become wetted by the liquid? (assume dry road and relatively flat (<1% gradient) surface)?

what would be the effect on a sloping surface? (5% gradient in 1 direction)


There are motives behind this question and I do not have an answer


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: tikay on November 02, 2011, 10:15:21 AM

I would suggest the predominate factor is now how far it would spill naturally, but other vehicles running over the spilt liquid, which would then spread the diesel over a considerable distance (length) via their tyres, quite apart from "splashage" which would spread it laterally.

Pure guesswork, but the road surface could be damaged over a 200 or 300 yard length.

The insurance bill, of course, would be quite something......


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 02, 2011, 10:26:54 AM
Also depends on weather conditions, condition of road, type of road etc

100 litres = 0.1 cubic metres or 3.5ish cubic feet is it one of those trick questions like that oil will not move on a flat surface?

in short IDFK and i wouldn't really know where to start, surely 5% in 1 direction would go for a while


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 10:31:40 AM
You can assume no traffic movement, let's say there is an imaginary lorry on its side blocking the road

Surface is macadam

I guess on the basis of simple dispersion how far might we expect? Let's say it is a 100l drum which tipped over in 1 location and diesel was pouring out of a spout (ie no huge gush) and we expect all 100l to spill (no retention in container)


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 10:33:34 AM
Oh and if we could stay metric, particularly in square numbers that would be nice


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 10:35:33 AM
Not a trick question, I use diesel as petrol would evaporate. I am genuinely interested in how people see the answer and their reasoned logic.



Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: kinboshi on November 02, 2011, 11:11:30 AM
"The authors review the wetting and spreading properties of simple liquids on solid surfaces, putting emphasis on the role of the heterogeneities of the solid surface and on the spreading kinetics. In a situation of partial wetting, the liquid does not spread completely and shows a finite contact angle on a solid surface. The partial wetting behaviour on perfect solid surfaces is well described by classical capillarity. Heterogeneities of the solid surface lead to contact angle hysteresis. In a complete wetting situation, the liquid forms a film on a solid surface with a thickness in the mesoscopic range. The direct long range interaction between liquid and solid described by the so-called disjoining pressure governs the physics of these films. Films of mesoscopic thickness also appear in the spreading kinetics of liquids. These precursor films form ahead of macroscopic advancing liquid fronts. The spreading kinetics is extremely slow. "

(http://iopscience.iop.org/0034-4885/55/4/001)

What he said (probably).

My answer:

Things like temperature will affect the spread as the viscosity of the diesel will change.  But as a total guess, if the road is assumed to be totally flat, I reckon the 'puddle' eventually formed would be about 1cm deep (on average, maybe slightly deeper in the middle and shallower towards the edges.

If it's 1cm deep, and 100l = 100,000cc so a circle with a radius of about 180cm.

:dontask:



Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Skippy on November 02, 2011, 11:41:30 AM
Did you ever do that experiment at school with cooking oil floating on a bath of water? What you do is you drop a very small drop of oil onto a bath of water. You estimate how much oil you dropped onto the bath.

E.g. http://www.practicalphysics.org/go/Experiment_633.html

The key point is that the oil slick spreads out until the oil is 1 molecule thick. Because you know roughly how much oil you dropped in, and how big the resulting slick is (see the link for how you do this) you can estimate the size of an oil molecule.

Back to the problem at hand,I think Boshi's nailed it, except that I think a 1cm thick slick is a massive overestimate. If you've ever dropped some cooking oil on your kitchen floor, you'll know it takes up a huge area. 100L is a lot of liquid.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 01:08:14 PM
So in Boshi's Eg, what area does it cover at 1mm thick?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 02, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
So in Boshi's Eg, what area does it cover at 1mm thick?

circle with diam of 180metres?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: kinboshi on November 02, 2011, 01:38:33 PM
Did you ever do that experiment at school with cooking oil floating on a bath of water? What you do is you drop a very small drop of oil onto a bath of water. You estimate how much oil you dropped onto the bath.

E.g. http://www.practicalphysics.org/go/Experiment_633.html

The key point is that the oil slick spreads out until the oil is 1 molecule thick. Because you know roughly how much oil you dropped in, and how big the resulting slick is (see the link for how you do this) you can estimate the size of an oil molecule.

Back to the problem at hand,I think Boshi's nailed it, except that I think a 1cm thick slick is a massive overestimate. If you've ever dropped some cooking oil on your kitchen floor, you'll know it takes up a huge area. 100L is a lot of liquid.

Depends on the road surface.  'Wetting' needs to be taken into account:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting and also consider the tarmac surface on a 'zoomed-in' scale.  It's a pitted surface with lots of craters and valleys that will hold the diesel as well as the diesel that sits above the tarmac.  Maybe 1cm is too much, and maybe 5mm is more accurate?

If it's 5mm deep, then the diesel will cover twice the surface area to a 10mm deep puddle, so the radius would be: about 250cm.  If it's 1mm deep then it'll cover ten times the surface area, so a circle with a radius of about 565cm.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: GreekStein on November 02, 2011, 01:44:25 PM
i prefer picture quizzes


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 02, 2011, 01:45:35 PM
i prefer picture quizzes

(http://robcubbon.com/images/spot-logo.gif)


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: ManuelsMum on November 02, 2011, 02:36:16 PM
The surface type will affect capillary action.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
The surface type will affect capillary action.

its macadam and like kinbo said it is both textured and porous


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: ManuelsMum on November 02, 2011, 02:38:30 PM
Cadburys

blockbUster?

Tesco

yaHoo


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Flea on November 02, 2011, 02:53:55 PM
Subway


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Bongo on November 02, 2011, 03:31:49 PM
Y is ebay I think...

Also a circle of 1.8m radius seems way out to me... I just poured a litre of water on the ground outside and it spread to ~0.5m radius circle, now that was on concrete slabs but I also reckon that half of it went down the cracks between each one.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: kinboshi on November 02, 2011, 04:00:29 PM
Y is ebay I think...

Also a circle of 1.8m radius seems way out to me... I just poured a litre of water on the ground outside and it spread to ~0.5m radius circle, now that was on concrete slabs but I also reckon that half of it went down the cracks between each one.

We ended up with three puddles:

1.8m radius (at 10mm depth)
2.5m radius (at 5mm depth)
5.6m radius (at 1mm depth)

if we add some more:

8m radius (at 0.5mm depth)
17m radius (at 0.1mm depth)


If someone could be so kind as to go out and pour a litre of diesel on some tarmac, we can see what sort of depth the puddle is and then extrapolate from there for a 100l puddle.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Eso Kral on November 02, 2011, 04:53:15 PM
i prefer picture quizzes

(http://robcubbon.com/images/spot-logo.gif)
The S is the same as SUBWAY!!


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 02, 2011, 04:55:17 PM
i prefer picture quizzes

(http://robcubbon.com/images/spot-logo.gif)
The S is the same as SUBWAY!!

lol, everyone of them is from a well known logo. Obv Subway was the first one i got as well..


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Graham C on November 02, 2011, 04:58:00 PM
Is the U from Blockbuster ?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Eso Kral on November 02, 2011, 05:01:32 PM
i prefer picture quizzes

(http://robcubbon.com/images/spot-logo.gif)
Is it Herbies new Hoodie for this weekend?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 02, 2011, 05:01:52 PM
Is the U from Blockbuster ?

yessir


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: nirvana on November 02, 2011, 05:03:02 PM
When I was musing in Birminham this morning I came up with 100 sq metres at 1cm depth - is the maths crap ? CBA to work it out properly


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: kinboshi on November 02, 2011, 05:07:01 PM
When I was musing in Birminham this morning I came up with 100 sq metres at 1cm depth - is the maths crap ? CBA to work it out properly

1 litre = 1,000 cc
100l = 100,000cc

so that's 100,000 little 1cm cubes.  Laid out in a square that'd be a large square with sides of 316cm (approx).


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: nirvana on November 02, 2011, 05:16:41 PM
Aah, thanks, more like 10 sq m. Damn factors


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Claw75 on November 02, 2011, 09:29:21 PM
don't have a clue about the diesel thing, but the N is from Disney, the E is from Esso and the G is from GE.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: outragous76 on November 02, 2011, 09:31:15 PM
o from rolo


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Claw75 on November 03, 2011, 07:42:08 AM
o from rolo


I thought that at first glance, but didn't match -  it's from Lego.

A is from coca cola.  First O is from Sony.


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Joobie538 on November 03, 2011, 07:48:11 AM
P is pepsi  and the first O in logo Meccano?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 03, 2011, 08:59:49 AM
o from rolo


I thought that at first glance, but didn't match -  it's from Lego.

A is from coca cola.  First O is from Sony.

Correct, if everyone is bored i will reveal all?


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Graham C on November 03, 2011, 09:12:58 AM
Reveal would be good, I've spent too long on it already and only got a few :)


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 03, 2011, 09:14:19 AM
c - Cadbury
a - Coca Cola
n - Disney

y - ebay
o - Sony
u - Blockbuster

s - Subway
p - Pepsi
o - Oracle
t - Tesco

t - TicTacs
h - Yahoo
e - Esso

l - Louis Vuitton
o - Canon
g - General Electric
o - Lego


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: mulhuzz on November 03, 2011, 10:53:26 AM
g - Gala Bingo

FYP  ;)


Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: Shogun112 on November 03, 2011, 11:03:59 AM
This reminded me of something that happened to my dad... LOL...

He was a tanker driver before retiring, and he was delivering to a home with a Gas Oil tank at the rear.  Gas Oil is diesel but different colour.  He took his long pipe from his truck to the tank in rear garden and connected it to the tank, switched on and stayed around back waiting for the tank to fill up.  Waiting and waiting and waiting.  Then realised the tank was not getting any fuller.   He could hear his truck PTO working from the rear garden, so he went out to his truck, and when he got there the 4 inch pipe had blown off the truck and was emptying the truck at a rapid rate onto the road.  He lost about half his load before he could get the pump turned off, which equates to over 20 tonne..

To make it worse, the house was at the top of a large hill on a main road, and the gas oil covered the full width of the road and went all the way to the bottom of the hill and further.!!  Most of the gas oil missed the grids because it was mostly running down the centre of the road.

The road got closed by the police for 3-4 days while the fire brigade cleaned it all..!!  I caused a massive problem in the area...

OOPS..!!  LOL



Title: Re: More quizzage
Post by: millidonk on November 03, 2011, 11:11:37 AM

That's what i thought as well
(http://playingbingo.co.uk/images/clubs/gala-bingo.jpg)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5086/5298279844_83f724a11c.jpg)