blonde poker forum

found myself today in a small pickle, wonder what everyone thinks

$10/$20 NL - the game has gone kind of nutso in the last hour, mainly due to one guy who plays every hand, and another chinese guy who just sat down with $10k and appears to be playing with his face (but we dont know 100%)

I open to $120 UTG with  Aspades Kd playing around $20k

UTG2, a pretty solid, kinda tight but more than capable reg 3bets to $440 playing around $15k

Chinese man overcalls playing $11k~ I elect to call also.

Flop ($1,350)  Aspades 9s 9h

I chk, UTG2 bets $600, chinese man makes it $1,500 after less than 5 seconds thought.

Anyone got idea how we move on from this point?

Some info i have:

My image is pretty lose, but the UTG2 reg will defo give my 6x UTG opens a decent amount of respect because he knows i know the two fish are very likely to be calling close to any hand they've been dealt, we also both know that any 3bet is still likely to be peeled behind in AT LEAST one spot by one of the two guys and we also both know that if he 3bets and gets called cold, i will be calling near on 100%. Basically we both know each other have strong hands, but can be slightly wider than premium for sure.

Chinese man, is a bit of an unknown entity at this stage, he doesnt appear to be completely wild/stationy pre-flop, but has really clung onto hands post flop, we've also seen very few showdowns but tons of call call fold etc type lines SUGGESTING that he is pretty loose-passive. one really crucial hand in a single raised pot where the board was 55Q and he chk/raised a $220 bet to $900 and everyone folded, I have no idea if he was bluffing or not but the two decent regs in that pot folded very quickly so it suggests they prolly didnt think so...

Given we're ridiculous deep and have pretty limited reads/info, what you all doing?

i would first wonder why there are 2  Aspades and if i hit the backdoor will it still count as the nut nut flush

would probably just fold as vs passive people you aren't gonna be a head very often

trivial fold imo.

Has the Chinese guy overcalled from the blinds? or are we OOP to him? Seems like a fairly comfortable fold either way, definately if OOP to the Chinese guy.... if IP it's a pretty gross spot still, doesn't seem like the kind of board texture a 'less competant' player would raise with hands like  Ks Js etc. Just seems like more of a fold the more i think about it... also seems like a spot i'd be calling in far too often and a pretty common leaky guessy spewy spot.

I assume you folded, as did UTG2?

The most strange thing about this hand I think is his difference in c/r sizing between the 55Q board and this one. Kinda makes me inclined to think that he has it more often with this sizing than he does when he makes the c/r huge.

Which ace of spades his the incorrect one kinda makes a difference too.

Aspades is on the flop i have a random AK.

Chinese guy overcalls the cutoff

I just fold these spots, who was the reg?

if we have 98s?

Nhog Pham

IMO being able to fold these sort of icky spots is crucial when playing super deep. Learning to recognise when a spot is icky is actually not that hard. Having the discipline to avoid that spot by remembering to fold is much harder though.

This hand is a clear example of equity not being the same as EV. We have enough equity against their ranges to continue... if the betting was to end right now. But unfortunately this is not the case; there are more streets of betting to come, and we are OOP and deep.

Not that I ever would do so in practice, but it could even be argued that folding preflop to the 3bet is best... that's how crap it is to play OOP vs a competent opponent when very deep. I know that your first reaction is going to be "wtf?!!" when you read this last bit, and I don't really and truly believe that you should fold AK here at all (esp with the presence of a presumed weak player in the hand too). I am just making a point about how it is super tough to make a profit in this sort of spot even with a hand as strong as AKo.

I'm folding flop and thanking the chinese dude for making it easy for us.

FWIW, we are never beaten here by the reg.

I think the opportunity to play any good hand vs this Chinese man in or out of position for $320 shouldn't be turned down, I think it's safe to say i'd be peeling 100% of the hands I opened here for sure. Get what you mean though, you realize your equity pretty infrequently and its gonna be a lot easier to make a mistake than play perfectly post flop


I would call, and continue to call until all the betting has finished. some people might say AK and 89 are the same but they are not here imo

I did end up folding, even though I would have happily laid anyone 3-1 the Chinese guy had a worse hand, I was well aware I'd have to c/f the turn prolly (even though I think he might give up bluffing a decent chunk OTT) and I was also worried that Nhog had the same hand and we'd end up treading on each others toes and if anyone was likely to make a bad fold on later streets it was me.

Even still i'm ~90% certain the Chinese man was bluffing

wow, never folding.

Don't like the spot

But top top vs Chinese guy!

It's hard enough to fold 3 rd pair to them

this was my initial thoughts.

I ended up making a game situ based decision, I was winning decent + the game was close to breaking and I was tired which made a big difference + I was a bit worried the other guy had AK also and we were gonna get in each others way

Now you've stated this read on the Chinese man (presumably some ninja-style live tell/gut feeling/spidey sense?), I am going to change my advice from fold to call.

Don't worry about Nhog. If he is a good player then it is almost impossible for him to overcall with the same hand as you have. Your cold call is going to look sick strong to him. So if he continues in the hand in any way you don't need to put any more money in the pot.

You'll have to play the streets with the Chinese man, but if you really are 90% sure of your read then this becomes a lovely +EV bluff catching spot.

4 bet pre and try and get the reg to fold and get hu with Mr Chinaman.  When you 4 bet your line will look super strong to the reg so he wont mess with you and could fold out a lot of hands that he was 3 betting for value.  Then when you see the flop you can comfortably get in v mr chinaman as stack to pot ratios are now good for this.

Readless as played im not folding the flop - again when you overcall the reg will not mess with you as your hand looks super strong.  Considering your read is chinaman is probably bluffing then you have to call and reavulate the turn.  Its pretty hard for chinese dude to have a 9 that hes cold calling with so i can't see much youre losing to.  Chinaman may have a hand like Ax and be raising the flop for "info" as fish sometimes do so its not as you'll always be faced with tough turn and river decisions.

 ;topman;

agree 100%. good post

I'm stunned you think that.

Given you say this suuPRlim:


surely we should flat the flop and let him value own himself? If he has a 9 so be it as there shouldn't be any in his range?

clinging on is a lot different to what he is doing now