blonde poker forum

I'm blaming keys/lildave for this one. Villain is playing 29/23/11 over 20k hands (been putting in lots of volume recently ;) ) and opens 24 from MP. We're playing 27/22/4 this session over 60 hands but have played quite a bit with villain so he probs has me playing more like 28/23/9. No dynamic or notable history that I can think of. My notes on him are

seen flatting pre ip with kk/ak/at.
folds to resteal a lot.

Ok we're in the sb, villain is in MP. $200 deep.

Preflop: Hero is SB with   Ac  5c
1 fold, MangleMan1aC raises to $6.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $20.00, 1 fold, MangleMan1aC calls $20.00
 
Flop: ($42.00)   Tc 3d Th   (2 players)
Hero bets $23.00, MangleMan1aC calls $23.00
 
Turn: ($88.00)   8s    (2 players)
Hero bets $49.00, MangleMan1aC calls $49.00
 
River: ($186.00)    Js    (2 players)
Hero bets $114.05, MangleMan1aC calls $111.00 ;noflopshomer;

I hardly ever 3barrell in these spots, I usually give up by the river but because of the muckthenuts thread I tried it out here lol.

Spew? FTR, stupidly I didn't look at my notes on this guy, or else I probs give up lol.

Fold pre. As played check fold turn

oh he has a fold to 3b of 62% and is down 8 buyins after 20k hands.

Don't blame me, how exactly is this the same situation?!?


not high enough. His fold to 3b in this situation will be lower than his overall average since he is opening a tighter range in the co than his btn or sb steal (true for 95% of regs) and he is in position. You would need him to fold something like 70% to turn an instant profit on your 3b, so you need to make a profit after the flop to break even if he's folding less often than that. Since you're playing the rest of the hand oop to make a postflop profit you want to have a hand that is ahead of his calling range imo.

Barrelling is more fun than folding! But yeah do you play overpairs the same and shove the river or slow it down on the turn? I don't see there being many legitimate value combos we're really repping here otherwise tbh, basically all of our T hands are flats pre most of the time.

imo it would be a mistake not to value town people with an overpair on the turn.

having said that i think its a really bad turn and river combo to barrel with air and being super un balanced is fine. Unfortunately the 1/2pot, 1/2pot, 1/2 pot line needed in 3B pots (100bb deep) tends to keep people feeling like they are priced in way too much. If you have been restealing a lot form him there is a reasonable chance he may take a stand here with any pair by the time this river is flipped or have backed in to a strange float (if he wasn't trapping from the start). Lot of scenarios to dodge.

what skol said makes a lot of sense

Agree with all above. Like I said, I never usually barrel off in spots like these, for the good reasons you all mentioned.

I'm just worried about balance in my overall strategy vs regs. This scenario happens a lot, they open, I 3b flop is 742 or 883 or something like that. I cbet, they call. Now the turn bricks. Pairs the 2 or is another low irrelevant card. I have found myself naturally just giving up all my low equity AK, KQ type hands and only betting my strong value hands.

It's an easy strategy for regs to exploit. I read Sauce 1's blog (http://www.leggopoker.com/blogs/sauce123/poker-blog-hands-sauce-1-10691.html) about this hand with a reg who had a similar unbalance. He could just float the flop in or out of position and gain very accurate information on this regs range by their turn action. They can just play perfect against you.

That was my problem with just giving up every time. Now, maybe the regs at this level won't be noticing stuff like this, but I think they will.

James, it's a similar situation because our range is pretty strong by the river (AA/KK/QQ/JJ/Tx maybe 88) and doesn't include many bluffs as I don't expect him to expect me to be barrelling off here as I hardly ever do it. And we're getting a good price on the bluff (110 into 190 or something). So he doesn't need to fold that often.

I'm not defending it, it is spewy and maybe ged's right - being super unbalanced in these spots is ok, but I'm just interested in exploring this.


Of course I play overpairs the same. Barrelling JJ-AA all three streets all day long! And I can't think of hardly any Tx hands I'd flat pre from the small blind. I'd likely 3b or fold the T8-KTss. So he can put me on a T imo.

presumably this means you are cheating by using datamined/ptr hands?

A TT38 board is not the same as 7422

Can u not balance Ur range by checking back stronger hands a certain % of the time?

Yeh, but gives them the chance to check back medium strength SD hands and miss a street of value. If they're gonna fold these on the turn anyway then I guess that'd be a good adjustment.

no just put in a lot of volume recently

ok saw your thread obv you didn't think it was cheating.

You don't need to have a wide 3bet bluffing range vs MP opens. Save this stuff for BTN and sometimes CO opens. That said, you do have one of the nut 3bet bluffing hands.

Whether or not balance is important in these spots is debatable. However one thing to note is that if you have a much tighter 3betting range vs MP opens than you likely do then you will find it much easier to balance postflop since you will have less total air in your range.

As played, from knowledge of the player pool at these stakes online, I would suggest that you are not going to get many folds on this turn card. So I would definitely not advise making a zero equity barrel as you do. If you turned a flush draw then I suppose it is fine - randomisation by equity and all that - and you will get some folds of course i.e. when your opponent has a pure float.

On river, you should just give up imo. As a general principle, it is often not good to fire two barrels and then pussy out on the river... we should usually be firing once or thrice. But this seems to be a spot where if we barrelled the turn and get called we are pretty much always getting called on this river. So we can exploit our opponent's presumed inability to double float this board, and also the fact that he likely has no river folding range, by giving up on the river.

3betting seems fine, you have a cool hand to do it with. 3 barreling seems like it might be slightly spewy in a vacuum, you rep a thinnish value range but as you play with this guy a lot and if he's at all reasonable it seems like you should be light here at least some of the time to balance and you said you do this kind of thing so rarely so if you aren't really balanced and are value heavy in these spots showing this down might not be that bad. That being said he can always have 88 and JJ might flat the 3b rather than 4b/call so its not the best run out. Whether or not this is good might come down to whether or not he's loose enough to be peeling 77/66/55 pre and how often he's 4b/calling or flatting TT/JJ/QQ.

I think your flop and turn sizing can be smaller to set up stacks better on the river.

I disagree with Aamir about most of our Tx hands be flats pre out the sb. There are probably few, maybe none that I think are (or should be) flats pre vs an open from the hijack but there are 10x hands that I'd be pretty happy 3betting here

+1. Also this situation is quite a lot different to Amir's hand because by the river in his hand he has literally TWO bluffing hands Aspades Ks and Ks Qs (and our villain will blocking one of those hands some% of the time) This is because his perceived range for 3betting from the BB at such an early ante-less stage in the tournament is going to be given credit for being extremely strong. Just from reading you're threads Im going to assume that you're percieved range preflop has a pretty decent chunk of air in it, none of which we lose from our range OTF. Hence why you're likely getting hero'd here.

He had aces. Tarped me good and proper.

Think ur value range in this spot is to thin, unless ur barrelling like this some of the time with QQ KK AA your polarized to TEN hands and what TEN hands are u 3betting out the SB? That being said shoving the river seems strong I like the sizing on every street. So im guessing he had jacks right?

Errr... you're barrelling QQ-AA every time surely?

Of course barrelling qq-aa. He had aa which was a problem for me.

I dont barrel these hands everytime in these spots i probably do more often than not but balance is very important IMO

Thing is... you said "unless you're barrelling like this some of the time with QQ KK AA..." - which implies to me that you would not often be betting the turn/river with QQ+ here. But anyway... that's enough with the pedantry.

I advocate balance much more than most posters here (and I've had a few debates on this forum about this issue) but tbh I think this is the sort of spot where it is completely fine to be pretty unbalanced, certainly at 200NL anyway.